cranks on M3's

[dutigaf]

ok we started this a while back and you guys answered it but my dumb ass just didnt grasp what was happening..


no one wants to sell me a crankfire for my M3... we all have discussed this part.

they say that with my m2 rear buffer and light weight barrel that it is not safe and they shouldnt be selling them that way and that they have advised Allied and others to stop advertising them that way....

ive heard this from both Ryland Fleet and Emory Jones...

my builder says its not a problem for the way i intend to shoot it.

heres my question: if i go to the big M3 buffer why cant i go crank on it then? they where both saying it was too much impact on the rear buffer do to the light weight barrel.

well with the M3 buffer why would that still be a problem?

see this is why i dont understand..... this M3 with the M3 buffer and lightweight barrel could run at 1100rpm, but it wouldnt be ok for me to run that same set up at about 450rpm with a crank?

am i totally stupid?

what am i missing?

what condition am i changing here that makes this not functional?

[dutigaf]

either none knows the answer or they like seeing me stumped...

[VonRundstedt]

A bona fide full auto M3 or M2 has it's fire point timed. Now I truly think that recent ATF reversals combined with the unspoken coming Jihad against all things .50 cal have simply given the crank makers a case of wet shorts. Emory is kinda surprising, but I guess he turns out to be just another armchair revolutionary.
But back to the mechanics of it.
With the big M3 buffer you would have no problems, but it's only half the equasion. On the FORWARD stroke, the FA guns are timed with a screw-wheel under the trigger bar which fires the gun a fraction of an inch away from full forward..the barrel extension never hits the trunnion, until you stop firing. This is because it will beat the trunnion silly and eventually distort it. So yes, concievably with a crank approaching FA fire rate, you could do damage to the heart of the gun, a part impossible to replace, and the failure under fire of which could be severe. Because you have no feature on a semi gun to time the firing. The sear slides the disconnector out of the way, and you or the crank need to release and reset the trigger to fire again, so you can't time the fire point.

All that said, I just think that everybody is laying low and avoiding getting any more attention for thier gizmos.

[1919_4_ME]

Duti,
Theres no better way to find out unless you try it for yourself.I dont see why it would beat your M3 apart.Try it, just make sure your wearing a football helmet and thick welding gloves...


Oh and ALWAYS get video of your R&D test... :coffee:

[VonRundstedt]

Well, worse case scenario, you'll get a few thousand rounds out before anything goes wrong on the trunnion end. I was for most of my life an amateur motorcycle roadracer and mechanic / machinist. Machinery has some universal laws, one of which was told to me by a well known GP race mechanic. His statement/question was "How fast can you afford to go?"
Another variation of this was in Kevin Camerons' latest article in Cycle world..he asked the head engineer at Ducati how fast it was possible to actuate the valves in the Ducati desmo valvetrain..the answer was "How long do they have to last?"
Guns are machines, just like racing bikes. The rate of wear and breakage is directly proportionate to the amount of heat and stress induced by operation under set parameters, and expand exponentially if you exceed parameters. My M3 based gun has a few thousand rounds through it, and has a distinct footprint in the trunnion where the barrel extension hits it. I do not expect to have an issue with failure for many thousands more rounds, because the operating parameters of my semi auto fire are far below the stresses and heat of FA fire..my barrel will live a long life as will the rest of the gun. Should I increase the stress and heat, my failure threshold gets closer. Should I go beyond the accepted limits of what it can take, all bets are off.
As I said, the M3 rear bolt buffer will prevent damage on recoil..but what will keep the barrel extension from beating up the trunnion on forward lock up?

[dutigaf]

ok you guys put it down far enough that im getting the drift...

and what your telling me is exactly what John McG (the builder) said: im not gonna shoot it enough to matter.

seriously doubt that this gun will ever even get 2k thru it the entire time i own it. i go out runa few shells, roll it back in clean it and go wow! what a nice toy.

eventually im sure that there will be a big run thru it at one of the get togethers we have.

so the next thing will be altering the crank to work on that big M3 buffer.

im still gonna try it a few rounds on the m2 buffer cause John asked me to, and see how bad of an impact mark it makes so that we can all compare notes....

that gives me time to get the m3 backplate with spades and then adapt the crank to it.

[Kali Komrade]

:shock: Okay I'm gonna go hide now.... :peep:

Von is that just a common problem with the M3 or does the M2HB have the same affliction???

[1919_4_ME]

Hey Duti,
This one looks like an R Fleet crank no?

YouTube - crank trigger M2HB.
:coffee:

[VonRundstedt]

YouTube - .17 HMR MACHINE GUN .22 Mach 2 .303. .222 .270 .375

hey..have you seen THIS way cool shit? Who builds THIS thing?

[1919_4_ME]

Von,
Thats the Lakesidearms .17 HMR Postie 1919a4.I found a .22cal Tippman (original company who built them) for around $3500.Way more than any standard 1919.The cool factor thought is off the scales especially when you get the whole setup tripod,mini ammo cans and belts.There is also a super rare 1917A1 version out there but you really never see them anymore.
One of our group shooters had the rare .22cal Magnum version M2HB and it was off the hook! :mrgreen:

[dutigaf]

yeah that was of R fleets.....

nice aint it?

[VonRundstedt]

How many lobes on that wheel? That thing rocks! I might change my mind about cranks...Do they still make those? To fit an M3 backplate?

[dutigaf]

Von,

finaly something i can help you with.


yes ryland is still making those, and they have seven lobes on them....

no he is not making them for the M3 buffer at this time, he told me that if enough people got interested that they "might"

my emory jones crank has 6 lobes on it and is almost as fast on my m2 buffer on the m3 semi set up.

but i do have to give it to Ryland i think his actually looks nicer and the crank handle is in a better position than EJ's...

they do work a bit different look at the pix i got for you.. first picture's are of Rylands set up

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/MOAT_installed_op_800x504.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/MOAT.jpg

these second ones are of Ej's:http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/M2hbCrankfire_0073.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/M2hbCrankfire_0071.jpg

notice the difference in where the crank is placed?

i wish i could have afforded rylands and found someone to sell me one..... he didnt want to with the m2 rear buffer.

sean

PS EJ's crank is working perfect and seems to be bullet proof.... but i just thought Rylands had a nicer location....

oh, and rylands is about $1200.

EJ has now quit making his version for the m2 said the market just wasnt there. if i could get a Ryland i would sell me EJ to ya. $600 vs $1200

[VonRundstedt]

I'd lean to the Ryland design. Much more compact, leaves both grips open, and I like how it mounts on that bridge on top of the grips.

[dutigaf]

Von

you are reading my mind..... but getting one is a bit tough.

he doesnt want to sell it to anyone running a m2 buffer on a m3... and doesnt make it for the m3 buffer(from the way its mounted, would it really matter?) plus no one that has it wants to get rid of it. makes it a bit tough to get. lmao

but the placement and round design are top notch.

shame the EJ wasnt getting any real buyers on these..... when he came up with it i thought they would fly off the shelf (so did he) but when i asked him about it he said it just didnt happen.

[Kali Komrade]

Yeah Rylands setup looks like its for a right handers because it looks like you can grip the left spade while cranking... wonder if he makes em for lefties too... Those guys get left out often times... Rylands I would say is definetely more sano thats for sure... But Emory has definetley got a great rep on his products as I am sure Ryland does as well...

Von is there any reason why that crank for the M2 couldn't be adapted to a M3 backplate???

[1919_4_ME]

Duti,
Excellent comparison pics! I have never got to see them up close and they both look very nice.Would be cool to get a side by side range test on the two from mounting it all the way to runnning a few belts through them.
How much do the Emory cranks sell for?I know Rylands sells for $1500 correct?

[VonRundstedt]

Considering my long and infamous background as a machinist and fabricator of all things insane and mechanical, I just might have to come up with a Crank v 3.0...I'm thinking of one mounted under the grips instead of on top..to keep the sights and both grips open..

The M3 backplate uses a different trigger that sits in a different position, so even though the Ryland crank would bolt up, the arm to actuate the trigger might not work just right.

[Kali Komrade]

Yeah... I didn't think about that... :bounce:

[dutigaf]

ok when you instal Emory's crank it comes witha butterfly replacement part.... meaning you lose your semi shot ability.

with Rylands you do not.

this is why i use a Ohio black sheep crank on my 1919... so that i keep my single shot trigger..... it doesnt touch any of that.

but then again Emory's is working perfectly. and it cost me $600 and did i mention that he wasnt making them anymore for the 50?

would love to test them head to head for you, i just need Ryland version. whose buying it for me?