Want to build a M3 50BMG [Archive]

grazefire

01-20-2007, 09:15 PM

Where do I start? Coles has kits for the M3 that seem affordable. There still seems to be a lot of question to ask. Any one up to the task of helping? Have built the 1919a4 and seems only right to move on up.
I could buy one built but that seems like I'll be missing something.
What is the M3 called if it is built with the M3 barrel? Seems like everything is for the M2HB. Who builds the spades for the M3 and does the machining? Do I stand a chance or will it lead to a pile of WTT or WTS? Lots of great info on the 1919a4's and can find tons of great people and stuff for that build. Thanks for any info.

dutigaf

01-21-2007, 07:56 AM

i can help you a little here.... one of the gurus will do the rest.

i just bought a M3B kit from Coles. that stands for M3basic.... regular barrel

you can change the barrels and stuff out later if you find the m2hb one, for me no more than im gonna shoot it, why bother? all about your choice.

then you still need all the usual parts: RSP, semi set up, rear plate and so on... these other parts if you go top notch are $1405 (thats what i paid, you may find them for a little more or less) then its all about the assembly.

now after some REAL careful consideration, i decided that my skills in this area where not good enough for this baby....and i dont have the tools to do it right. if you got your 1919 together and are satisfied then you probably can handle this one if you got the tools.

I farmed my entire operation out to Mr. John McGuire. it will be right, and im going to school on it with him at the same time. it aint free this way, but the piece of mind im getting and him sharing his knowhow with me is worth way more than the price im gonna get charged.

hope this helps duti

swedishmeat

01-21-2007, 09:50 AM

Graze fire,
" upon further evaluation..." I believe that is too much weapon for you. In the ultimate act of decency, I will drop by to take that kit off your hands and relieve you of the marital discord that said instrument of worries and secrecy impart . Please have it packaged and ready for my arrival. ALso throw in the extra barrels and ammo that your wife does not know about.
You are welcome.
Such services are available to other members at NO CHARGE.

Who needs counseling when you have.....SWEDISHMEAT.

Oh God I'm in trouble.

grazefire

01-21-2007, 02:44 PM

Bought Cole's last two M3 barrels and got a Socom side plate coming.
Have learned that side plate will need work or resale and barrels or good to go. Where can I get picts of what I'm wanting to do? Thanks for the replys.

Swed, I heard that a "THOMAS" picture may buy your freedom. (no she doesn't know but I do :shock: ) TOO much gun for me?? NOT :beer: We built some good 1919a4"s Oops --- people will know we know that we know that they know that we know that they know we know each other. Can I have your AMMO when your wife gets rid of you?? :beer:

Read a post about a CD that could possibly help with my build. Any body know about it?

dutigaf - Thanks for reply. John M. is stand up guy. Your very lucky to be learning what you are. Maybe can help the rest of us young grasshoppers.

LIFE IS GOOD

Kali Komrade

01-22-2007, 05:42 AM

Check out gryphos.com I think he has a lot of info on the different conversions guys... like whats simular and not between the m2hb and M3 and the different mods you can make to it to make if more like the ma deuce...

From what I get so far the M3 was a unit that had a solenoid actuator in its cradle mount whether maned or remotely operated in a wing... I've see what I believe is an m3 in a custom mount that had spaces to actuate the tab on the back plate... I'd rather spend the money on a mount than to change the parts out of another kit...

dutigaf

01-22-2007, 10:54 AM

Kali,

you've built these before, i havent. so im not even gonna question your input.

heres what John explained to me: that he personally thinks the m3 is every bit as good when converted over, if not better than the regular m2hb as long as you used the correct parts for your type of application.

i would have loved to have had just a regular m2hb.

it just wasnt available to do. at least not in any reasonable price range. so it was a converted m3 or nothing for me, and John assured me that if i come up with the M2hb barrel later that there is not much to switching it over. im ot going to be shooting thousands of rounds like some of the guys do. mine is just going to get shot every now and then, so the "3" will be fine for me.

maybe some day if the stars align just right, i can come up with a actual m2hb!! but till then i'll just suffer thru. lmao...

:50cal:

Kali Komrade

01-22-2007, 11:28 AM

You know I haven't built one just yet... Am definetely looking into it though I just don't see what the big deal is... M2 M3 yeah they are two different beasts and the M3 actually will cycle faster for semi auto so ya know what I'll go with the M3... I fortunately know a guy that has the smarts to make the mount and I can figure out a spade setup so I can trip the tab on the backplate... If I watch my Big Sandy video I will pull a pic down of one so you guys can see I think it has the M2 barrel on it but it sits in a mount setup for the M3...

swedishmeat

01-22-2007, 11:39 AM

can someone explain.
The law, as I understand it, prohibits importation of barrels. That should not preclude an enterprising individual from manufacturing M2Hb and m3 barrels. John M. would be my first thought since he brought us the 1919 in 8 mm.

oh, and grazefire. I just offered to hep out a friend in neeeeeeed. ME.
You don't have to return fire. :mrgreen: :beer: :mrgreen:
Ima counting the days to the Waco shoot.

dutigaf

01-22-2007, 02:07 PM

ok i want to get to both of you here so i;ll try not to forget....

my bad Kali, thought you were already doing the 50bmg in semi!! know that you got the bolt action like me and thought you had already moved up...

maybe i mislead you on my m3? mine is getting all of the changes that i can afford such as the rear stuff and the spades and John rattled off a bunch of shit that i just honestly dont understand. lmao barrel supports and front somethings and rail this and that and improved slides..... in case you havent figured it out, i dont know shit about the mechanicals of this gun. but im gonna learn. Man thats embarrassing to have to admit in a room full of gun junkies!! lmao while eating a bootfull of humility.

swedish meat: ive been wrong a lot here lately but was under the impression that they couldnt import anymore barrels and that was driving the price up. but that were almost triple the amount of barrels in the country that there were complete kits. is that how you heard it?

swedishmeat

01-22-2007, 03:16 PM

sounds like we are all in the same general area of the learning curve on the M2/M3. humility is highly respected here. Most of my knowledge comes from a handful of guys referred from or posting on this board.
I don't generally get into panic buying. but the ammo and m2hb purchases seem to have paid off before they arrived. Just couldn't afford to keep putting this off.
James at allied armament tells me that after the M2HB guns/kits he has in stock sell. he will have to increase the sale price to reflect the new barrel prices. Which could be $1,000 per barrel. Assuming he can find a supply of barrels.
If someone can tool up to make these then a market will exist. And the FA guys generally regard the $$ less than the toy.
The story sounds similar for primers and brass. several distributors are out of primers and the prices are increasing as they are replaced.
The whole thing is REALLY PISSIN ME OFF. butt, :moon: I'm good.

tomt

01-22-2007, 04:46 PM

if you have john build your gun he'll do a great job. he may not want to mess with a slocum plate though. they are far less than 80% (need alot of machining). have fun with your new toy. when you need a trig and sear kit KMP will supply ya with all you need. we include instructions and the cd with pic's and such, thanks. tomt

Kali Komrade

01-23-2007, 03:42 AM

Okay then I have not read all the fine print on the barrel ban but from the simple text that everyone repeats over and over its an importation ban... So since this is a piece of american military equipment that should not be a problem... It's still repaired here right... I heard a program not to long ago that said something to the effect that they are not building the m2 just R&R the old units from WW2 Korea etc... However with a war going on as we all know parts and ammo do tend to go to boss in charge before little folks like us get it...

Barrels... Barrels... Well guys I think someone like ER Shaw could make them as they make 1919a4 barrels in 8mm for Model 1 sales already or at least thats what I've been told (believe nona whatcha hear and only halfa what you see) So take that for what you will and dang Tomt just reminded me I need to check out his website for a product I hope he makes it and I gotta get me some more front cartridge stops for the A4... :coffee:

dutigaf

01-23-2007, 05:03 AM

yep i got some stuff from tomt for my 1919 awhile back, and im guessing that John is getting some of the parts from him as well for this one.

and guys thanks for not busting my chops on the fact that im a rookie and dont know anything real technical yet. :mrgreen:

i do have a fellow close by that reloads 50bmg, and ive always saved my brass.

swedishmeat

01-23-2007, 05:39 AM

..we are not qualified to buss yur chops.
Why can't we all learn together? :gaga:
Remember. we all came out of the 1919 pool and are desperately attempting to join the big boy club before the memberships run out.

Kali Komrade

01-23-2007, 06:07 AM

Hey have reloader will travel for 50 shooting.... :mrgreen: Hey no body knows everything and sometimes we have to feel our way through things untill folks that know better chime in...

dutigaf

01-23-2007, 08:45 AM

sounds great guys.... since i was so lousy at distance shooting (im too jittery) i decided to just go all out and get the big boy toy. and besides later on i can sell it when my girls are starting college.

grazefire

01-23-2007, 01:38 PM

dutigaf,
Would like to get the toy before college starts.
Which level of the M3 kits did you buy. Is there still lots of stuff to chase down? Gonna stay with the M3 barrel?
tomt,
How much machining will need to be done on the Socom plate I just purchased and is it usable? Do you do any of the 50 cal maching? Got your T/S in the 1919's. KMP stuff may be the way to go. What kind of back plate will be needed to use your T/S in the M3? Could the back plate be notched and then start on the building of spades off of the M3 back plate? Seems like there are some DIY spade grip sets but they be only for the 1919's.

I got onto M2HB.NET but have not started asking question yet as those folks seem to have a lot of know how and just been reading. Would love to find an exploaded view of the M2 and M3.

Did read a bunch of stuff on the gryphos.com. Very cool.

Seems like it may take more than one rainy day on this build.
Hope I don't come across as too stupid. Just learning :mrgreen: .

Gonna get the parts hopefully next month and lay them out and start looking.
My build will be semi-auto.
THANKS

dutigaf

01-23-2007, 04:11 PM

you cant be any newer at the 50 than me.

i got the m3basic is what the kit was called, then John McG(the builder)was going to pick the parts out in person when he goes to Coles, and then the rear plate and all that other stuff.

yes, i'll have spades, and the M3 barrel, i think he's going with a tomt trigger set up and a Halo RSP. but until i see him or he sends me a parts list i have no clue for sure.

John is trusting that my money is good, and im trusting his skills. probably not a fair trade for him, but he's gonna have the gun completed and if he decides i smell funny he could tell me to get lost. lmao

i'll make sure and take a bath before i go. :rofl:

VonRundstedt

01-23-2007, 10:49 PM

Dude, I've had my Gryphos M3 / M2 HB hybrid gun for over a year and I'm still fine tuning things. It's a learning curve for everyone. I've been a machinist most of my life (car & truck engines, racing motorcycles) and even with all the tools at my disposal the .50 was no 1919. I built 2 1919 guns without a hitch..those little guns are so logical in design and straightforward that sight unseen, I dry assembled my first kit on the bench with no instruction. The .50 is just a WEEEEE bit more intensive to build. The parts are big and heavy, alignments have to be perfect, and there's little room for error. If you are not a skilled mechanic or machinist, you just might consider one of the pro builders to do your gun. If confidence is high, have at it. You will have a distinct advantage if you do build it yourself..by the time you're done, you will know the Browning .50 intimately, and if problems do occur you won't be just another exotic toy owner standing scratching his head..you'll know how it all comes apart and have a working knowledge of what all those parts do and why, and thus not be at the mercy of others to fix your gun.
Barrels. We're in a Catch 22 on USGI barrels. The Govt just does not want us to have these guns anymore, get used to it, and it's that wonderful Conservative Attorney General who did it to Y'all. So all barrels here if they do get surplused get cut up. All barrels from overseas get cut or just not shipped.
Someone, somewhere, will produce a M2HB barrel in the US for public sale. It will likely be a $1000 item. The machinery required to spin out a heavy barrel blank then cut 1/2" rifled bores 45" long is not even in the same galaxy as the stuff you make little straight 24" 1919 barrels with. Whoever tools for this will have to throw BIG bank at it, and likely won't rely on long term sales to recoup outlay. Just be ready to cough up when the first ones hit the streets.

So..when you gonna be ready to shoot it?

VonRundstedt

01-23-2007, 11:09 PM

BTW:
Foolproof suppliers.
Tomt at KMP. Get ALL your semi conversion parts there. Period.

Toolbox (Carl) is back and machining internals. Love ya 'n all Tom, but Carl has this mill thing happenin'. His work goes together like butter and always works. Since I moved to Colorado and sold my mill and lathe, farming it out is all I got right now, and I've never had anything not work from Carl.

I'm having an M3 backplate converted to spade grips and butterfly trigger by Ed Haywood at CWA. Others will do it, but bend over and smile...

Until someone comes out and says that .50 BMG is still going to be a non-NFA weapon, I don't see anyone investing heavily in .50 anything. The suppliers know and the vendors know, and they are letting inventory run out and deliberately NOT restocking. Talon just isn't talking at all, the best I get from them is "February"...And truthfully, its' not that brass is getting scarce..CHEAP brass is getting scarce. You all best get over cheap ammo, there will not be any. The days of .33 cent cases unfired are over. You want to cough up .80 a case I can bury you up to your eyeballs in brass, but that's the way its gonna be. As far as I can tell, Wideners' still has powders and some of the pricey brass, Polygunbag has some brass, Hi-Tech has primers, and if you want bargains you'll just have to scrounge the auctions. I just got 1400 pcs from a guy but at .40 each, once fired.
Until the legal status of the caliber settles, the ambiguity is keeping stuff off the shelves, as nobody wants to stock 10,000 pcs of something ATF will confiscate in 2 months.

dutigaf

01-24-2007, 03:40 AM

Von,

thanks for all the info!! and yes im planning on learning as much as i can about the assembly and tear down of my 50 from John.... thats why im going to him instead of having it shipped. so that he can hands on run me thru it, and he seemed to really like that idea. im glad he wants to take the time to run me thru and im gonna take notes as well as paying close attention.

i dont worry too much about the ammo price for my consumption, i'll get some more and let the chips fall where they may. but for my friends..... i hate to charge people who drop by and take a shot or 3. but then again, if they want to shoot it they will have to cough up a donation for the ammo fund.

tomt

01-26-2007, 03:30 PM

thanks von...i think. carl is a good dude, not a pita like me huh ???lol. tomt :flame:

VonRundstedt

01-26-2007, 03:50 PM

Love ya 'n all Tom..relax. You did kind of freak out over M3 bolt mods I wanted, but it's cool. You're just careful, you have a lot at stake. I'm a business owner, I get it.

Settle down over there.

Kali Komrade

01-27-2007, 08:28 AM

Whats the difference between the M3 Bolt and the M2 beside the M3 being lighter... :gaga:

VonRundstedt

01-27-2007, 09:02 AM

Except for its' basic mechanical dimensions, almost everything. The M2 bolt is a big brick of steel. The M3 is hollowed out everywhere it doesn't contact something or have a guide rail. the extractor is different, the left-right track switch is totally different, the firing pin and extension / cocking lever I think are the same. The engaging face underneath where the breech lock hooks up is different, the M3 having a two-finger lock block while the M2 is a solid full width lock face. The M3 bolt is much lighter to facilitate the 1100 rpm fire rate. To use them in my gun, I have the breech lock area milled out to use the more robust M2 breech lock, I use the M2HB firing pin retainer / sear spring, and now I have bolts with only a left hand side sear slot instead of left and right, because I think the lack of impact face at the bolt rear caused a problem.

1919_4_ME

01-27-2007, 10:11 AM

Good info so far.
So did Tomt say it was too much work to do the mods or it just wasnt worth the $$ to do it?Just curious to know cause Tom's does excellent machine work. :hail:

VonRundstedt

01-27-2007, 10:48 AM

He had never done the M3 to M2 mod for the breech lock face and was not comfortable trying it for liability purposes, even with pictures and instructions, and frankly my gun got built on a BC plate which at present is not his favorite thing on Earth because of his conflict with them over designs. he was quite...er...emphatic that no way no how was he gonna touch the mods on my bolts. Sear slots and side milling for KMP stuff, fine.

I'm not diggin at Tom..he's great. If I get clear to build another .50 all the stuff will come from him, sideplate too. Carl will just have to do the breech lock mod.

dutigaf

01-27-2007, 04:03 PM

Von,

you got way too much info for me to digest.

all i can do is tell you what John has relayed to me...

he mentioned Tomt,Kmp and brass magnet plus the rear work for the spades and back plates and so on.... im not sure who does what or which parts but ive got parts from tomt for other things and all was great and brassmagnet made a RSP for me that was awesome.

so now i will ask you a question: since the M3 was faster cycling than the M2, will the semi action also cycle faster? or can you just not tell when its converted?

VonRundstedt

01-27-2007, 04:20 PM

That lightened bolt zings along pretty fast..the difference is noticeable if you've fired M2HB guns, as I did in my tanker days..the M2HB at full gallop is a nice bump-bump-bump-bump fire rate and you can feel that heavy bolt flying back and forth. The lighter M3 bolt cycles faster even in a semi..it comes flyin back and zips the next round into the chamber before you know its done it. FA you REALLY hear it..the M3 is total machine gun.
The biggest obstacle to firing a semi quickly is the pressure the trigger takes to depress. The trigger butterfly cam face that moves the trigger bar and depresses the sear all has pretty much the wrong geometry for fast repeated firing. I've been working on the problem a lot and am anxious to get my new M3 backplate assembly back from Ed at CWA and get this trigger bar / sear thing slicked up. I got a good set up with my old M2 backplate that had me approaching M2 fire rate. I want to try and stay with M3 bolts so the action can keep up with my thumbs once I get it tuned out.

1919_4_ME

01-27-2007, 05:01 PM

Someone should start a dedicated parts/machine work supplier list so I can tack it to the top.It might make things a little easier for the .50 cal newbies? :coffee:

Kali Komrade

01-29-2007, 06:46 AM

Yeah I would like that... Whew just getting caught up from the weekend...Won't insert my suggestion here I might get spanked by the hand of god(Shoot1919a4)...

So Von if I read one of your posts up further right you can only feed from one side of the gun your building or did I miss something... The M3 and the M2hb you can feed from the left and right... Right Or is it because of the Semi mods that you have pick a side...

VonRundstedt

01-29-2007, 07:12 AM

No no...the sear slots for the side trigger sears..some M3 bolts have a sear slot cut to the left and the right, across the bolt rear. The little black side sear wedges go in there so fixed mount side triggers can be used. But the bolt I started with had it L and R, and it reduces the impact area of the bolt rear where it hits the backplate buffer because of the size of the milled slots..I found some M3 bolts with L slots only, giving me a bit more metal back there. The old 2 slot bolt hit the backplate buffer so hard it peened in the main sear slot and crushed a sear. It looked just like someone took a ball peen hammer and wailed on my bolt... I blame overloaded Yugo ammo for this, as I never had an issue before that. I pulled a round down afterward and I've never seen so much powder in a 50 rd., it must have had 245 gr or more of powder, so much the bullet base compressed it slightly.

So no, not feeder slots, side sear slots. The ones across the bolt rear.

Kali Komrade

01-29-2007, 09:22 AM

Okay I kinda get the drift of what you saying... I'm going to have to get a good source on M3 and M2 info with some really good pictures because sometimes I just don't get it Von... It'll be like -----> :banghead:

dutigaf

01-29-2007, 09:28 AM

yeah :banghead: :banghead: of those for me. lol

Von your givin great info, and im hoping that the light will go on for me when im actually looking at this thing and he is running me thru the teardown, headspace and so on..

from what youve said so far its gonna cycle plenty fast enough for me.

now all i gotta do is see if i can afford a crank for it later. :wow:

you guys know of any other than the one from Ryland?

VonRundstedt

01-29-2007, 09:58 AM

OK...
on M2 and M3 bolts, you have a vertical slot cut in the rear surface of the bolt, yes" This is where your KMP semi sear gets installed after milling it out larger. The KMP sear has no provision for the FA side sear, for obvious reason..

But if you look at your STOCK FA sear, it has a little ramped cam machined on it's flat rearward face, and there is a latteral slot in the bolt rear face. This accomodates a small 2nd sear which comes in from the side. When the cable or linkage is activated on the side mount trigger, it pulls a sliding cam on the side trigger, which depresses the latteral side sear, which engages the main sear and releases the firing pin. Some guns are equipped for left or right mounted side triggers, so the bolt has a slot going both ways. I prefer the bolt with the single left side trigger sear.

If you look at a stock M63 gun mount you see how it all mates together.

grazefire

02-09-2007, 03:36 AM

Got to see the difference in the barrels from the M2 and M3.
If one builds a M3 for semi use then all the parts could be M3?
Can see why everything can be lighter in the M3 since the barrel is half the weight. Been working and reading the post. I started this tread and have not lost interest in the build. Keep giving the info. Seems the Socom plate I purchased may be just a piece of steel. OOOPS :banghead: Will get to shoot an M2 in March :beer: Would be nice to find some ammo. I can see that kits will be here and the reload parts are get harder to find. Would love to find some good ball ammo to get started shooting and then build up to the reload stuff.

Kali Komrade

02-09-2007, 05:28 AM

Yeah I saw your post on that Socom plate up in the other thread no idea on that... man... I've seen the plates that Tomt has and Halo mfg... But haven't heard of the Socom one yet...

Well I know most everyone wants to trade out there m3 back plates for and M2 back plate because its easier to finish the RSP because I guess on the M3 backplate it has an extra spot milled out or something to make stonger contact with both the RSP and the LSP... Think I read that over on that gryphos site... Anyone had to deal with that scenario yet... Can anyone with more experience than myself elaborate... :bounce:

VonRundstedt

02-09-2007, 07:07 AM

The M3 backplate offers more strength and support for the rear of the gun because it is machined to wrap around the ends of the sideplates...instead of the M2 backplate simply sliding into the slots between the backplates, the M3 is extended out wider and has a full slot for the entire backplate rear edge. It's very strong, likely to strengthen this area for the increased hammering of an 1100 rpm fire rate.
KMP or BC are the only sideplates I absolutely know will work, and I think that now both plates have the thick portion at the rear like the USGI originals. Your SOCOM plate will be useless with an M3 backplate.

Ammo is THE crisis right now. Even reloading, ball bullets are running dry, primers are sold out at Wideners and it'll take you a month to get any from Pats. There's a lot of new 690 gr ball bullets out there but they are pricey..I think everyone should get used to pricey...Wideners still has 5010 powder and 860 powder and some brass is still around in quantity but not cheap..my view is buy everything you can while you can in ammo components, go to the Lee website and buy yourself a .50 BMG reloading kit and learn how to press these puppies out, because it looks like Uncle is shutting off the surplus ammo faucet.

dutigaf

02-09-2007, 07:41 AM

so would you consider $1.50 a decent price for surplus reloaded stuff? there is still some out there at that price just not alot....

VonRundstedt

02-09-2007, 07:45 AM

If it's decent ammo that's cheap.

Kali Komrade

02-09-2007, 08:04 AM

You know... I don't think its a matter of Uncle sam shutting off the faucet but the commodity market is out of sight lead fetches a premium as well as copper and brass so where do you think its going... Right back in the system why deal with folks like us when you can get more money from the scrappers...

Thats about the best advice on the loader situation you can't go wrong with the Lee loader thats for sure... The only think I don't like is stupid wooden ball on the end I wish they make a roller handle for that setup too....

Thats good info on the backplate Von I don't see how I got some sort of special engagement on the sides but maybe I need to read things two and three times...

BTW a vendor posted on here that they are converting the M3 backplates to take spades guy named cranetec... interesting....

VonRundstedt

02-09-2007, 08:14 AM

Well, no, you see once something is declared surplus, it's surplus...ANYBODY can buy it. But ammunition MUST be demilled first, by a DoD approved facility, so there's a middleman. Now agreed, if the middleman is getting more from the metal buyers, that's where all the demil components are going. But it doesn't explain the dry-up of AP, API, APIT which is slowly happening..you can't scrap metal those bullets. I think the recent Congressional reports and investigations into AP ammo, 50 cal, "leakage", and a declared "surge" in Iraq (remember, the .50 is our weapon of choice there) is keeping Uncle from releasing any more ammo.

So you don't see an M3 backplate that wraps totally around the end of the gun? I'll have to dig up pics I guess...