FINALLY! I have finally got one for myself.

[fantacmet]

Here it is Ifinally have one. I bought it today. Cost me a bundle, but I finally have it. Bushmaster M4A3 with the collapsable stock, and the flat top reciever with the clamp on carry handle.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/rebelpride311/DSCN0057.jpg

[dutigaf]

cool and congrats!!

i STILL dont have anything in this family of rifles!

[poverty ridge]

Ditto's on the Congrats

Now Bend over and insert your head between your legs and kiss your ass good bye This is only the beginning of a very expensive hobby.


Enjoy and many Happy Rounds to you :)

[GUNRUNNER5150]

yup congrats dude

got me one similar to that, you wont be disappointed, bushmaster makes one of the best ARs out there

[1919_4_ME]

Beautiful rifle!Now your going to get the black rifle disease too. :beer:

[franks71vw]

well we might be starting up a group buy on rifle kits that have the upper fully assembled and have everything but the lower stripped recevier in a M4 profile barrel etc. We had the GB for the lowers a while back. it will also have rear flip up sights that will Co-witness with an EOtech system etc. I am getting the sample kit hopefully this week and by this weekend have the rilfe built and going... will be saving some huge beans at the end for those interest... nice rifle I cant wait to get this up and running...

[rugman59]

Wheres the belt go? :moon:
Did you oil it up yet? That damn thing was drier than a popcorn fart!

It really is a good looking rifle,You REALLY need to get a safe next.Seriously. :beer:

[Dan Wilson]

Sorry but I think I will be the dissenting vote here.
Stoners design is the biggest piece of shit in this world!!!!!!!
Stoner must have been a fucking stoner and the military must be taking some serious kickbacks to keep this piece of crap design in service for the last forty years.

If you use it for target shooting you should have no problem with it as long as you clean it frequently and often and also every chance you get.

However it is a VERY poor gun to select for a SHTF gun, especially the M4 barreled version. You end up with twice the amount of unburnt powder INSIDE the action with a short gas tube barrel than with a longer tubed system.

So I guess it really depends what you intend to do with it and how.

However I will say you would have to go a long way to find a lower receiver that was as versatile as the M-16/AR-15 lower, now if you couple it with a 416type upper (short stroke piston type) you would really have a hard time going wrong there, no heat and no crap into the bolt/lower receiver just about quadruples (or much more) the dependability of the gun.

And I will say they are a fun little non gun kinda gun to shoot, with that buffer you don't feel recoil all you hear is sproing in your right ear every time you shoot, it always made me laugh :mrgreen:

And the part I really don't understand is the people that get a live gas feed 9mm upper for it, okay so you have a poorly designed gun with a bunny bullet and you change it for a poorly designed guy with a gopher bullet?
At least coot went with a .45 upper, that will put the serious thump on anything as long as he don't try to shoot too far with it :headbang:

Hope I don't piss you off here or make you feel bad that aint my point, but I am just tooooooooo fucked up at this point to word it correctly (lortabs and bout 16 oz of whooosky makes for a sweet night).

But let me close my post on a positive note, a guy named Chuck that hails from the city of Denver (or ruined city of mostly flaming liberal cunts) said this on another board I frequent "god bless red head trailer park girls..
trashy women, clunky rifles, and old motorcycles, kinda makes my world go round.

And with that I bid you goodnight :mrgreen:

(I guess for most people this means tomorrow means Monday, pfffft for me it means the wife wakes me at 11am with a cup of coffee :bow: as I am the proverbial retired cripitled fuck)

tschutze

Dan the wasted :beer:

[fantacmet]

Well most of the issues people have with the AR pattern rifles canbe dealt with without too much modification as far as I've seen. From my point of view it beats the AK pattern rifles, which aren't controllable anywhere near as much as the AR, and to top it off even if you could, say drop them both in a rifle version of a ransom rest to see what each was capable off, you'd actually have a group with the AR, whreas the AK well, um, hopefully all shots will be on paper. The design of the AK lends itself more to the artillary style of fire, you blanket the area with a barage of shots, and well yer bound to get some that work.

Some would say this is comparing apples to oranges though. Frankly I would agree with that as well. Two rifles of different design of course, and while also meant for the same thing, a rifle for an infantryman, their intended outcome was different. Our miltary got exactly what they wanted. They got a rifle that had a higher capacity, the ability of automatic fire, lightweight, the benefit of not having wood handguards expanding or swelling under weather and pressing against the barrel affecting accuracy, not having the giant clang when you run out of ammo to let the enemy know that you are reloading(M1 Garand), and also lets not forget controllability. Due to it's ultra light recoil you can get more shots in the same spot in a shorter amount of time. It has nothing to do with being a pussy or manly, or being able to handle recoil, it's just simple physics, a lighter recoil means your sites will be back on target faster then with heavier recoil. Is it a perfect rifle? Not by any means. It is a far sight better then when it was originally released, which from my understanding it was an unreliable pile of shit. Slightest bit of dirt and grime and it jammed. Which seems to be the biggest argument against it today, aside from the ineffectiveness of the .223 ammo. The reliability of the weapon has to a large extent, been resolved. As far as the effectiveness of the .223 round, one must keep in mind that due to international treaty we can't use "hollowpoint" ammo in our military rifles. The hollowpoints that are in use in the military in these, the hollow point of the round is a byproduct of the manufacturing process, and not for an expanding round(or so it is said, but one must wonder). Aside from different .223 ammo choices available to us as civilians, the effectiveness of the ammo can be rectified with a conversion to the 7.62x39(still controllable in the AR rifles, as opposed to the AK rifles, even if not quite as controllable as the .223, the controllability is within the design of the rifle itself).

The AK also has it's advantages. The Russians got exactly what they asked for. A dirt cheap rifle, that is made from cheap parts, that can be slapped together from a bucket full of spare parts without having to worry about matching tolerances, chambered for an effective cartridge, that is simple to use, and can be drug through the mud and sand and still fire. What was required to do most of this, is also the rifles greatest drawbacks. Controllability was of secondary consideration, the rifle is definately not controllable in comparison to most other battle rifles. It's not a matter of the round, it is a matter of design. The accuracy leaves something to be desired, even in the absolute best examples of this rifle such as the VEPR, which isjust barely accurate enough for police use. It's a loose fitting, poorly made rifle. This is what allows it to be a cheap dime a dozen rifle, that almost anybody can copy without much trouble, and that any moron who knows how to field strip it can build one out of a bucket full of misc. parts, and have a working rifle. Again thisis design.

Like you said, it comes down to what you itnend to use it for. to say one rifle is a piece of shit and the other is a good rifle, is a bit unfair to say the least. Each rifle works as it was designed to. Both are generally effective weapons, in most battle conditions, but for different reasons. The AR is more expensive for the rifle itself but cheaper to shoot, because the ammo is cheaper and because you don't use as much ammo because you get a higher hit percentage. The Russians have almost always made sacrifices with their military equipment. For isntance that Mig fighter that we got to take a peek at when a defecting Korean fighter pilot landed in Okinawa in one. It was test flown by Chuck Yeager. It's performance at high altitude was technically superior, but it couldonly be flown by the strongest of hands, it's instrumentation was no more advanced then even primitive early WWII fighters, and the wings had so much flex, it made you yearn for the stability of a rope bridge in 50 MPH winds.

Now this was by no means meant to say that you were stating that the AK was a better rifle, since you in no way mentioned the AK in the first place, you merely stated the AR pattern rifles were the biggest pieces of shit on earth. this was meant as a look at both simply because they are usually compared to one another, and to show that the AR is far from a piece of shit. It's a damn good rifle, and so is the AK. It's just a matter of intended use. It would work fine in a SHTF scenario, if employed in proper fashion. Same with the AK. The AR is not the rifle you want to drag through the mud and grime for days on end with open action whiel having to pop up and cap someone, and the AK is not the rifle you want to sit with at a sheltered position, and plink off invaders at 80-100 yards or so. That is assuming you have enuogh invaders coming in that a sniper rifle is too slow.

Now we could throw in the Ruger Mini 14, into this equation. You get damn near the controllability as the AR, and it was designed from the get go, from the users point of view, to address most of the deficiencies of the AR rifles. From a user perspective. As you said though, the AR has the versatility, which is why it was called the Stoner Weapon System. Also since you mention that, I can think of no other design ever concieved that has that kind of versatility, except for the recently designed XM8, which is supposedly supposed to be, being issued to our troops right now, but if I recall hasn't been issued to a single person.

As for my intended purpose. I intend to just go out and shoot it when I shoot the rest of my stuff, and have fun. There are plenty of paper targets that need to have some holes put in them, and if I am lucky(or smart) enough, there might be some tannerite that needs to be disposed of as well.

Didn't piss me off one bit though. Sometimes discussion like this can be fun. I've always liked these rifles, the way they looked, and since I've shot one for the first time(THANKS RUGGY), I like them even more. They are a bit goofy as far as guns go it would seem. They do tend to have that spring clangy sound, which depending upon your point of view is pretty cool. As for the 9mm conversion for it, well I won't comment other then to say when I saw it in the catalog, I was thinking now just WTF purpose does that serve aside from using money? That and all the standard stuff about the 9mm round ebing a cap gun round, etc.

As for being fucked up with the lortab, well I know how you feel, the doc gave me a small batch of vics(same thing under a diff name, hydro and ace), and then dropped a bottle of percs on me. Of course the 16oz amplifies everything to a great degree. Careful with that stuff though man, wouldn't wanna see a news article cause you couldn't hit the bastard coming in to kill you with your AK(HAHAHA get it? I know bad funny.). I suppose it's a good thing I really don't drink anymore. I could be a smartass and say I don't really drink any less, but then I'd be lying through my teeth(which I haven't gotten yet they are still on order), and ruggy would call me on it. Heck I even had to add the disclaimer on my teeth before ruggy called me on not having any teeth.

Thanks for all the comments guys, yes including you Mr. Wilson. On that note with the Wilson comment, I think I better get the hell out of here, before I make a Castaway joke. :peep: hehe

[Kali Komrade]

Well... Took my AR to our Beltfed shoot today... shot one round fail to extract lubed my bolt shot twenty rounds then a failure to extract... Good thing I brought my garand... :coffee:

Don't get me wrong... Congrats... Make sure you get some range time on that one so if it has any quirks you can work it out before you need it...

Anyone else saw the article they had on the new Sigsaur 556 with the AK/Galil gas system... Nice...

I've never been a fan of either of the two... I like my FAL and my Garand and I hope I'll get an M1A this year...

[Dan Wilson]

Well most of the issues people have with the AR pattern rifles can be dealt with without too much modification as far as I've seen. From my point of view it beats the AK pattern rifles, which aren't controllable anywhere near as much as the AR, and to top it off even if you could, say drop them both in a rifle version of a ransom rest to see what each was capable off, you'd actually have a group with the AR, where as the AK well, um, hopefully all shots will be on paper. The design of the AK lends itself more to the artillery style of fire, you blanket the area with a barrage of shots, and well yer bound to get some that work.Well first of all let me say I should not have even posted this but I was on my annual drunk last night, really did not mean to knock your new purchase.

But the accuracy issue is really no issue as for the National Matches, if you want to win you use a black rifle period.
Wood and steel has not won anything at Perry for decades now.
The AK IS more reliable than the AR, after you shoot and use both it will become apparent; just like their planes the commies build it crude and robust. I wont say the AK is bullet proof they screw up regularly, just not as much as the AR series. Also the built on a milled receiver that assembled correctly WILL be a pretty accurate rifle.

On a side note, I have an AK and really dont like it either, now the VZ 58 I really really like them, I cant wait to pick up the receiver to build them and see how the function.

Our miltary got exactly what they wanted. They got a rifle that had a higher capacity, the ability of automatic fire, lightweight, the benefit of not having wood handguards expanding or swelling under weather and pressing against the barrel affecting accuracy, not having the giant clang when you run out of ammo to let the enemy know that you are reloading(M1 Garand), and also lets not forget controllability.No actually they didn't get what they wanted. The AR 15 M/16 was FORCED upon the military by McNamara (I really wish someone would kill that murdering ass) and his whiz kids� There were investigations by the military as well as congress on this rifle into the mid 70s. The Ping and the enemy thing is a rumor propagated by that tub of lard on the military channel. If you have two or three people shooting 30-06s there is really no way you're going to hear it unless you're right next to the rifle. Sometimes I dont even hear it when I am shooting. Wood and accuracy were never a real concern for the guns that the legs use, they only tweaked the match rifles. The others only had to meet like five or six MOA to pass inspection (I think, its been awhile since I read up on that subject)


Due to it's ultra light recoil you can get more shots in the same spot in a shorter amount of time. It has nothing to do with being a pussy or manly, or being able to handle recoil, it's just simple physics, a lighter recoil means your sites will be back on target faster then with heavier recoil.No argument there, less recoil is better shooting period. But its not the bunny bullet the offers the decrease in recoil. Its the buffer, if you didnt have the buffer the 223 would probably have close to the same recoil as a 7.62X39. If you put a good buffer in an AK or Garand you could equaqte the same amount of recoil, just vary the spring rate.



Is it a perfect rifle? Not by any means. It is a far sight better then when it was originally released, which from my understanding it was an unreliable pile of shit. Slightest bit of dirt and grime and it jammed.Nothing has really changed since they first come out with this rifle, they have chromed the bolt, changed the extractor/spring, added the forward assist (if it was properly designed you wouldnt need a forward assist, how many other guns use one?)

Which seems to be the biggest argument against it today, aside from the ineffectiveness of the .223 ammo. The reliability of the weapon has to a large extent, been resolved. As far as the effectiveness of the .223 round, the effectiveness of the ammo can be rectified with a conversion to the 7.62x39(still controllable in the AR rifles, as opposed to the AK rifles, even if not quite as controllable as the .223, the controllability is within the design of the rifle itself). Other than reliability this is my biggest hate for the rifle, youre using a gopher bullet. Really, its was designed for varmint shooting like prairie dogs.
Sure you can carry more rounds and thats good because youre going to need it, a 50 or 55 grain bullet just cant do the damage a 150 grain thirty cal can. As for the controllability, like I said before if someone makes a different buffer spring with a heavier rate you can dampen a thirty down to close to the twenty two




What was required to do most of this, is also the rifles greatest drawbacks. Controllability was of secondary consideration, the rifle is definately not controllable in comparison to most other battle rifles. It's not a matter of the round, it is a matter of design. No shoulder fired arm is accurate under select fire, regardless if its an M-14 or M-16 on average you will get the first two rounds on target and round three is seeking a home elsewhere and all the rounds following as well. Thats why the M-16 went to the A2 mod which put in the three round burst instead of full auto.


Thanks for all the comments guys, yes including you Mr. Wilson. On that note with the Wilson comment, I think I better get the hell out of here, before I make a Castaway joke. Sorry but I guess it would be lost on me, I have never seen that show, when someone says Mr. Wilson I always think of the Dennis the Menace show, it was the thing about four decades ago :beer:

In the end the AR rifle is really the tops for target shooting but I would look for something else if I was heading into combat (just as many of the guys downstream that have pulled the M-14s out of mothballs, gimme a thirty thumper :headbang: )

I first shot the AR in Basic back in 79 and dealt with them on and off for the next 25 years ending with GAU 5/A.
SOCOM was replacing all of our stuff with the HK416 uppers when I retired, it has a huge difference in the reliability than the old upper and AFSOC was cutting contracts for new .45 now that is a sweet house to house gun :headbang:
After all is said and done I would use the AR (with any kind of upper) for precise target shooting but when it comes to the shit I would be looking for an M14 or FAL.

This is great discussion, thanks

Dan

[rugman59]

Hey Mike,I was'nt gonna out you on your impending dentures.That would be rude even for me!Besides I'm not in a big rush to stop calling you GUMMY BEAR! :flame:

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:beer:

[fantacmet]

Dan, about the recoil thing, I might not have posted what I meant to say correctly, but I meant to say pretty much the exact same thing you did, it isn't due to ther round, it's the rifle, it's in the design. One thing I've wanted to do when I got one of these thugh, is even thuogh it is already a powder puff rifle as far as recoil goes is to add all the extra shit to make it even more of a powder puff. Just to see how light we can make it. I do need to remember exactly what it is, and where to get it, but there is one thing that will save these rifles in the long run, and ithelps recoil, it's a tinly little piece of softish plastic, that goes inside the rifle you get off the aftermarket for these. I can't remember where it goes or antyhing, just tht the ones I saw were of a light translucent tannish color, and they looked almost disgusting. IF the size hadn't been put into perspective with thigns around it, I would have thought it to be some kind of sex toy.

Aye it was a good discussion, I can agree with half the points and argue with the rest, but it's just not worth the time. I'm too tired anyway. :P Enjoyed it though. Hopefully other newcomers can get a thing or two from it.

:beer:
Michael

P.S.
You did nothing wrong by posting that, I didn't really see it as knocking my gun.

Ruggy, well, um, there just really is no comment for you.

[GUNRUNNER5150]

your talking about the little plastic buffer that goes between the upper and lower recievers to make it a tighter fit? or do you mean the hydraulic buffer that replaces the rifles buffer and spring? man i never thought i could say buffer more than 3 times in one question lol

http://www.buffertech.com/stores/1/Recoil_Buffers_C2.cfm?UserID=773147&jsessionid=8c30340f47ceV$2B5i$3

thought about one of those hydraulic ones myself, but dont have enough rounds thru mine to know if its even worth trying to reduce the recoil.

GR

[Kali Komrade]

I know buffer tech has those add on buffers but as for the hydraulic set up for the AR theres' just to much fussin' with it to make those work... Most of the guys that I know have those have to change more than just the buffer setup... In addition I've heard there's a weight to slow down the bolts reward movement and in some cases they've had to change out the gast blocks to being adjustable as well...

The one thing you can say about the AR system is its been built long enough that they just about make everything for it... and I really think with these new hybrid systems we will see the AR take off again in a more positive light... Dude don't get all haired out on us raggin' on the AR believe me you too will have your gripes just as us when you start learning your new black rifle... :coffee:

On another note... The fucken' AK ain't all what its cracked up to be... I took one of my builds out... fired around failed to extract... Hmmm thought they'd fire no matter what... Nope to much grime in da chamber so even the most unfoulable weapon like Dan said can have its failures too...

God damned AR's are accurate... Thats the main reason I bought one... but if the SHTF I'm grabbin my Garand...

[Slick]

Congrats on your new rifle! I think you made an excellent choice on getting the heavier barrel (without that skinny section that's on the military guns for launching grenades).

I want one too - but have held back as I see the faults in the design (that Dan mentioned). However, I have SHTF guns - so all I want one for is to accuracy-shooting, or for varminting and maybe an ocasional competition. I may go with a gas-piston upper and spend the extra $ - if I can swing it...

Here in CA - they've come up with the "bullet button" - which (by legal definition) requires a "tool" to remove the magazine. I'd never have considered an AR-style rifle as long as the gun had to be dis-assembled to get the ammo into it (like the first CA-designs required) - as taking a gun down repeatedly will "loosen it up" in short order - destroying the very accuracy that I want the rifle for.

[rugman59]

Slick , Plus 10 on the gas piston upper!Thats just one more item on my wish list.