ATF catching on

[VonRundstedt]

Well, I knew it would happen...ATF is re-evaluating the several rapid fire devices on the market to simulate FA fire with semi weapons. Apparently, some genius built a thing called an "Akins" which basically bump fires a semi rifle through use of a frame with a spring loaded part that uses recoil to refire the gun.
What in hell is wrong with these people? Not ATF. The people who constantly push the envelope and bring us up on the radar? What is wrong with these guys? If they want a machine gun, go pay for a registered machine gun. But eventually, some dingbat will invent something over the top and get everybody looked into. And over on A4, they're actually bitching its more ATF violating gun rights. PLEASE. They'll be lucky to get crankfire type devices past this latest "investigation" if it gets going. I don't understand. Why poke a sleeping dragon?

[ohioblacksheep]

Von,

Good to see you around !!

I've been staying away from that topic because I don't think it has anything to do with " Pokeing a sleeping Dragon". I think its more of a " Spitting in his Face" thing.

I really wish someone would have looked up the definition of the word " Trigger" in the dictionary BEFORE they tried to make money playing in the "Gray area". It might have saved a lot of folks a lot of grief...Lou

[VonRundstedt]

I really don't see the point of risking it. Not only do YOU get on their shit list, but now a whole segment of the gun collectors get yet another thing for some asshole senator to hold up in a hearing, so EVERYBODY gets on the shit list.. To my mind, all these devices are like punk zip guns, just trouble. I have worked on my 1919's and am in process of redoing the internals of my M3HB, and if you want to see what can be done with practice and a good trigger set up with a semi spec legal gun, I'll shoot some video of my 7.62 1919 and my 5.56 AK. I have those set up like butter, and I dare anyone to shoot better with a FA gun. Not faster...BETTER. Rapid fire, but on target and under control. I'd rather be legal and just put in the bench time to get smooth trigger action than monkey with getting raided or put myself up as the recall poster boy for a whole bunch of guns or cheater gizmos.

[Kali Komrade]

yeah I've heard you saying you got your a4 set up to run like butter Von I think I have the same thing going on in my a4... I feel in some cases I'm exceeding crank speed... Mikey wanna see video... I actually got mine cycling faster on reloads here lately...

Bottom line is if you really want a machine gun go and buy one don't cheat the system... :shock: This garbage with AW-SIM is going to create trouble for the A4 belt fed guys thats for sure before all the dust is settled... Hey I liked the system they had but naw to gray area ish... The other deal of the akins thats not right either...

[VonRundstedt]

Sure. Ammo load = recoil = speed. Hotter loads would run the gun faster.

[Kali Komrade]

Nah wasn't running them hot had to much experience with ruptured cartridges...

[VonRundstedt]

Well, when I say hot, I really mean just a different load which creates more recoil. But it does occur to me now that I'm reloading that a lot of the surplus dumped on the market super cheap was there for a reason.

[beltgunz]

I must take issue with all of those who think no one should attempt to come up with new ideas related to simulated full-auto fire for fear of showing up on someones radar screen, and say bravo to the folks at Akins. You folks first must understand the NFA definition of a "Machine Gun". It states that the firearm must fire more than once for every pull of the trigger. The Akins Accelerator was a brilliant concept that followed the NFA rules, and was indeed OK'd by the ATF FTB (Firearms Technology Branch) twice before that company released it to the public. It attempted to bring truly controlable simulated full-auto type fire to all those who cannot afford it (due to the artificially high prices created by the BS 1986 machine gun ban), or that could not legally own a full-auto gun. I personally have no interest whatsoever in the company that attemted to market this product, (and who I am sure has taken a substatial financial loss), and I also personally own several legally-registered full auto firearms, so I do not require these devices to enjoy full-auto fire. Please do not disparage those who take a chance on a new idea, but even more importantly, do not be naive enough to think that if you simply lie low, the ATF or other govt. agencies will simply leave you alone, for it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!

[dutigaf]

the ATF is not going to leave this community alone........ they want your toys

but there is also no reason to wave a flag and say hello im over here!!

[Kali Komrade]

Well... huh... I don't know I really don't want to get started on the issue of the legalities etc. etc. I completely understand what both of those companines intended to do within the law...

I can only look at this one way... If you fool around in the grey areas you best make damn sure your not improving the rate of fire with no effort put forth by operator... I'm even a person that is sketchy on the old hell fire tac triggers... With a crank your putting effort into tripping the trigger for each round and I really don't see where the effort is involved in using either of the two products they made them stop production on... Maybe someone that owns one can explain this to me... As I almost bought a AW-sim for my nevada stash but was real hessitant even before all the contraversy started... I'm not knocking the product don't get me wrong I'm just saying its really not something that would be in the middle of the grey area its way off to the right...


Now I've heard alot of the Semi Auto folks saying that the FA folks turned those two companies in because the systems were less expensive than buying full auto blah blah same old shit we've seen all over the various boards... But thats all trash talk anyway...

:horse:

[VonRundstedt]

Right now there's some poor schmuck sitting in prison on 40 years conviction for "possession of machine gun parts with intent to manufacture" somewhere in Missouri in some jurisdiction where there's an anti-gun prosecutor in bed with an anti-gun judge..I'd have to look up the case again for the details, but all the guy had was parts kits..like we've been buying..demilled parts kits without sideplates. The law has not helped him one bit. His innocence has not either. Up to 15-20% of imprisoned people are actually false or manufactured convictions in this country, reflected by the fact that the US has more people in its prisons than ANY other Western democratic country.

We are already in a legal environment where you can no longer trust your elected or appointed Government officers, you have a Federal administration which has made lying a career trademark, and we as a group already look like a big fat target for some crusader to knock off to get more TV face time next election. I still insist that pushing the envelope, though it may be withing the legal bounds, won't help you when the referees move the goalposts at their discretion and do things like declare shoestrings as full auto sears. If you wanna play with the rich boys toys, cough up the dough. The Constitution guarantees me Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, but that doesn't mean I get bed time with Heidi Klum ordained by law..I'd have to EARN that.

[beltgunz]

Once again, this company in NO WAY attempted to skirt the law. It submitted its item to the ATF FTB for testing, not once, but twice, and was given the green light, not once but twice!!! Only after the second approval by the ATF did they begin marketing their device. Then only after the ATF was asked to review their decision by some unknown entity was their decision reversed. The real problem here is that the ATF has way too much latitude in deciding what is and what isn't OK. I highly suggest that anyone wishing to review a thoroughly knowledgable position on this subject should pick-up Small Arms Review. It is by far the most thorough, NO-BS firearms publication available, and is as close to gosple for the Class III community as one can get. It has some of the most up to speed industry people, and even some with firearms-related legal backgrounds writing for it. I only wish I could do it justice here. I also wish to to note to all of those who have purchased and are using the various devices for simulated full-auto fire that every one of those devices that are sold legally have passed the muster of the ATF's testing at one time or another. You should be using that device every chance you get, and not hiding it. Fight for your right to keep & use it. The ATF knows those devices are out there. You are not keeping anything secret from them! You need to be writing to your representatives to tell them the ATF has too much power and decision making authority. The only people that should be worried are those who are in fact using some sort of non-approved device or alteration to achieve full-auto fire. Those people indeed have something to worry about.

[VonRundstedt]

The prisons are full of people who attempted to apply common sense and reason and the letter of the law to ATF rulings.

ATF is just a tool...a tool of those elected and appointed officials you suggest we address our grievances to.

You're not wrong. You're simply naive'.

[beltgunz]

Sir, no one is suggesting that any fight to change entrenched govt. policies/regulations/laws is easy. But it MUST be done. Once again I will reiterate the fact that I have no vested interest in any type of these devices, either from a financial or entertainment point of view. I can operate any of my full-auto firearms any time I wish, and even if every type of these simulator devices was to be deemed legal by the powers that be, you can be absolutley assured that no matter how many of these were sold (and I truly hope it would be a lot) it would in no way affect the value of the firearms in which I and many others have invested a very substantial amount of money. I would like to say that I have never before become involved in a forum discussion on any matter, but felt compelled to do so when I came across this thread because what is truly puzzeling to me regarding this entire matter is how anyone who enjoys firearms, especially those as "exotic" (to the rest of the world) as anything belt-fed, to actually chastise a company for attempting to make our shooting experience more interesting and enjoyable, and to make it available at a very affordable price when compared to the alternative. It truly is unthinkable. As a shooting community, we should be rallying behind the folks at Akins. I have recently called this company and let them know I would be willing to help if they would like, such as letter writing to rep.'s, etc., because I feel so strongly that they have been wronged by the ATF. I would like to say that so far it has been a pleasure to debate this issue, and that it has remained on a civil level without degenerating into name calling laced with numerous colorful words that prove nothing other ones inability to think. Thanks.

[VonRundstedt]

Because my friend there is right, there is wrong, then there is reality. Reality is what you better deal with. I've been kicked off gun boards for expressing my predictions and my views, and for revealing things I knew. Those here who have known me for the past couple of years and especially from that "other" 1919 board will look at what is happening to this Government and look at current events and see, hopefully, what I was talking about. I feel you are going under the assumtion that fair play prevails, that law as written is law, and that taking a stand on principle and the letter of the law will protect you. This is not reality.

[VonRundstedt]

PS:
As I said many times on another board which ejected me for my views, this administration has violated the Constitution numerous times, engaged in an illegal war over oil, killed thousands of people, recinded most of the Bill of Rights, and has committed crimes so aggregious that prosecution or impeachment is not an if..it's a WHEN..
Well, to all those who called me "Cop Hater" and anti-American when I called the Patriot Act the equivalent of Adolph Hitlers' Enabling Act..now I can say, yes, I TOLD YOU SO.
Congressional hearings have just revealed aggregious ABUSES of the Patriot act under the Justice Dept. and FBI. Averaging 56,000 "national security letters" per year to gain information on US Citizens, conduct break ins, wiretaps, and mail interception of US citizens, and under the secrecy provisions, make it a felony to even ASK about it. It has been found that half of the spying and investigations were conducted against innocent Americans for belonging to religious organizations, or simply checking out library books. In many cases, for no reason, in mistaken identity errors. As I said many times, the Patriot act is NOT there to protect US from Terrorists..it is there to protect THE GOVERNMENT from US. And now it has been proven.
Congress is now calling for Alberto Gonzales' HEAD on a platter, and after Valerie Plame testifies before committee next week, you can expect things to REALLY come unravelled for this Reich and it's Nazi ministers.
God, I do hate being right ALL the time.

You still trust this Government to protect YOUR rights? Wake up.

[beltgunz]

It is truly unfortunate, but it seems people will always find a way to justify inaction. It is always easier to sit and do nothing, blame the system, and complain how nothing can be done to change it. It takes far more effort, drive, courage, and fortitude to try and change the things you think need changed, even in the face of seemingly insumountable odds. I never said any of this is easy, but there is a process to change things. (Remember 1994???). Remember the words, "...Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death"? More people need to go back and really read the entire passage from which that one line is taken. I stated previously how I ejoyed the debate regarding the Akins Accelerator, but unlike the facts which I gave regarding the way that device was approved for sale then pulled from the market, I have yet to see any facts used to back-up anyones position as to why these devices should not be marketed. A lot of rhetoric and opinion to be sure, but facts, no. And now it has turned to an all out rant against the government in general. Also, any argument that would hold Valerie Plame up in high esteem is a dialog that has gone way, way beyond its original boundries, and one that I will no longer take the time to address in this forum.

[Kali Komrade]

Huh did I just walk in on a :flame: the government thread or what....

Well... anyway theres a place for everything over here I guess... I'm not completely familiar with the mechanicals in the AA unit but I believe that the AW-SIM unit works basically like most disconnectors would in a closed bolt full auto... The unit does not trip the trigger untill the bolt is fully closed like the FN FAL, M2 carbine etc... Even though the unit is a separate device its not the finger doing the work... there is not a reset on the trigger on the spade unit that once you depress it the gun only will fire once like the disconnector on our semi auto 1919's right is that how the unit works... I'm only guessing here... Now if that were the case I would say that the constitutes the weapon as being full auto... Again it's just a fine grey line they are riding... Hey I liked the unit I'm not trying to argue against it... I'm just trying to see what they are trying to see to deem it as an illegal device... I didn't flame either of these devices during the debate before they were both shut down but am now trying to figure why they shut them down...

Now to look at something on the other side of the spectrum lets say crankfires a number of mfgs. make them okay you have a rate of fire that is established by a device powered by hand to fire off one round at a time while the trigger resets... Now if you were to motorized the unit with an electric motor with a shut off switch... Would this be considered as being a full auto.... Well... I guess to answer that you could look at the GE mini gun right...

My understanding is very limited as guns are not my life so please forgive me if I stated something in correct... :coffee:

[VonRundstedt]

If you motorize a crankfire you have violated the "Single function" phrase and have indeed made a fully automatic weapon, or more accurately, a device or combination of parts intended to make a fully automatic weapon.

To address the above misunderstanding, I do plenty within this system to try and promote change. No, I am not one of those fat-ass useless ranters on a board, not a desk chair revolutionary. Many Senators and Congressmen and media propaganda hacks know my name.

The situation is not as benign as some would think. Total disarmament of the population, nothing less, is the goal of the people in power in this country, on BOTH sides of the aisle, because an armed population is the only deterrent to thier nefarious plans. So in an adversarial atmosphere as we now have, my contention is to NOT give them a reason to outlaw and ban legal firearms, which is their ultimate goal. Every guy who comes up with a device which skirts the law regarding making any semi-auto weapon fire as if it is a full auto weapon only gives some Nazi hack something to hold up before Congress and criminalize ALL of us with. You seem to come from a position of "Well, they're not bothering me and MY guns"..I say one word to you...."YET"... Your NFA firearms are no worry to them..they know EXACTLY where you are. When the day comes, they'll simply drive the van out and pick up all your shit. And you can repeat to the SWAT commander over and over how the law is protecting you. He'll be amused, I'm sure.

You're not in a stable environment. You don't understand what is going on apparently. What is legal today can disappear tomorrow. We don't need these woodshed Einsteins giving more fuel to the gun-ban fire with their gizmos.

And while you ask me to remember 1994, which is important, I would ask you to remember 1934.

[Kali Komrade]

Man I am sure glad I didn't buy one of those things I don't need anyone knocking on my door... Ridin' that close to the grey line is just to damned close...

Yeah I understand the motorized thing on the crankfire Von... I think that was kinda my same point that constitutes FA...
There's just something I think some of these guys don't understand about that AW-SIM device...As simplistic as it was it kinda acts like a disconnector would in a FA... Everyone wants cool toys but at what expense...

Healthy argument is always good for this community... and I wish that both AA and AW-SIM the best in what the final outcome is...