So whats on your aquisition list for 2007...

[Kali Komrade]

So whats on your aquisition list for 2007...

My No. 1 is to get my WC 1917a1 completed
No. 2 Build my Calif. legal AR systems...
No. 3 Order my 50 cal top end... (Well get my ass on the 1 1/2 year waiting list)....

I have my eye on a few other things but availability will determine that unfortunately...
Guess it will be builds and more reloading equipment in 2007

[50 Shooter]

I want a can of Troll Begone, maybe a few.

I know I'll set off at least one can here to run them out. :D

[Kali Komrade]

Won't tannerite do the same thing 50shooter??? I know 1919_4_ME is working on getting the board so it can't be attacked by spammers... I've found a patch for this program and its just a matter of getting it implemented... I also found a few other things that will make the forum a little more friendly so hopefully this will be a good year for the forum with some new surprises...

Another issue is that people just don't post :roll: So I guess the folks that like to troll will just keep on trolling... :|

[swedishmeat]

I just ordered a M2HB.
Haven't sported a woody like this in a loooooong time.
If my wife finds out, It's Termite Time.

Don't worry. when it arrives, I will only be a visitor to M2HB.net, my home is here with yuuse guys.
Oh, where does one find ammo for that beast.

[Kali Komrade]

Yur gonna be making it... Surp 50 is getting far and few between if you want to really shoot that beast... Look at reloading components over at wideners.com and that will get you started there are also a couple of ammo people that you can look at for pricing of ready made rounds... Might want to look into a 50BMG press the Lee Classic gets my vote...

went to a MG shoot in Waco last march and "picked up" 600 rounds of .50 brass.
I appreciate the tip on the press and any other advice you care to share.
Do you use a 55 gallon drum for a brass tumbler?
Dont have much $$$$ to waste on trial & error mistakes.

Oh. what is the difference between the M2 and the M3?
I've seen them side by side, but what is the technical difference.
parts availability?

[swedishmeat]

Kali
took your advice and ordered the last Lee 50 BMG press that Wideners had in stock.

Ya knooooooow,
if the 50 ban is extended to Texas, I think I could not comply. Piss on 'em.
They allow the messican army to bring their ma deuces over here for occaisonal excursions, surely legal residents should be allowed the same .

[Kali Komrade]

I'll try to drop a link to a site that explains the differences between the m2 and m3 for you tomorrow... I really don't know and I am just now learning about them like you...

[VonRundstedt]

M2 is the classic ground mount / vehicle mount gun, 550 rpm FA..M3 is the aircraft version, 1100 RPM FA..

M2 has the heavy barrel, M3 has the light AC barrel with shroud. Internals are different, M2 having a big solid heavy brick of a bolt, M3 has a much lighter bolt with lots of material milled out and holes. The main buffer is different, the trigger bar in the top plate is different, the breech lock and the whole backplate / buffer assembly is different. Do not use a heavy barrel and M2 backplate without modifications on an M3, or if you can find one, modify an M2HB bolt for the M3.

Better, just build an M2HB and have no worries. I wish I had.

In fact, on my '07 list is the aquisition of a true and correct M2HB kit to build. I know of several, but the $4900 to $5500 price tag is kicking my ass right now.

I'm concentrating on collecting brass bullets and primers..seems to be the next big problem. Ammo.

[Kali Komrade]

Here's a link to that can tell you about parts that can be used in both the guy sells parts and if you search around in his site you will find his different FAQ's on stuff...

http://www.gryphos.com/

So Von would I be right if I said the M3's were basically solenoid accutated??? I've not seen M3 spades yet...

[VonRundstedt]

The vast majority of M3 guns were either fixed mount aircraft or flex mount aircraft. The fixed mounts were indeed all solenoid triggered, although I can imagine some really early stuff pre-war being cable op side trigger. These would be wing guns, nose guns, etc.

The flex mounts for gunners had a gun cradle the M3 dropped into with pins, and the spades were integral to the mount, not the gun. I have seen spade grips with butterfly triggers on M3 backplates, but I can't confirm they are an original USGI unit. So far the ones I've seen are from TNW guns or in pictures not from the war, but recent. I have not personally seen a WW2 / Korean M3 with integral spade grips, but that is far from definitive proof they don't exist.

The commonality of M3 guns and parts as compared to M2 guns is pure application and production numbers. Every B17 had 10-14 guns. They built thousands of them. Add to that every fighter plane from P40 all the way to F86 Sabre having 4 to 6 M3 guns, plus all the medium and heavy bombers, and you quickly see that somewhere there are a few hundred thousand, possibly a cool million M3 guns. They ALL can't be destroyed.
Compare this to the ground or vehicle mount M2 and even though every allied vehicle had a .50 mount, 25,000 Sherman tanks, another 5000 variants, plus tank destroyers, Armored scout cars, halftracks, jeeps, and ring mounts on trucks, you still might be talking a total couple hundred thousand tops M2HB in service. I'd bet cool cash there was a 10-1 ratio of M3 to M2HB guns easily. It explains the price difference pretty clearly to me, plus the fact that M2HB is STILL an inventory issue weapon in every branch of the US military while M3 guns are virtually non existant but for helicopter door and tail gate guns we mostly get from FN now. When you look at the service history of the Browning .50 caliber, you get one very clear picture: When Patton called the Garand rifle the finest implement of war ever devised by man, he was basically and fundamentally full of shit. If you look through and read about decisive engagements in WW2 on the ground and in the air, you will find Browning .50 cal guns, and you will read that they were the decisive weapon in numerous key battles. In my humble opinion, the Browning .50 cal machine gun is the finest implement of war ever devised by man. Period.

[Beltfedshooters]

Von,
Intresting.I would like to try and find a close up of a B-17 waist gunners rig and see how M3's were rigged.I always thought they had spades mounted directly onto there M3's?

[VonRundstedt]

http://home.earthlink.net/~frsahu0003/images/aircraft_gunner.jpg

[Beltfedshooters]

Very intresting.
Is that some sort of wooden ammo box that the feed chute is leading to?
Also can you imagine how loud it must have been in that tin can with all 4 engines running at speed,300mph+ wind howling through the window and mutiple machine guns blazing not including the sound of 20mm return fire coming back at you.Must have been crazy back then...

[VonRundstedt]

This is why these men were the Greatest Generation. I can't picture any of the present-day spoiled ass-heads 20 to 30 yrs old even climbing into that airplane, no less effectively doing the job at 30 below zero for 8 hours. These were incredible ballsy Americans.

[Kali Komrade]

I've talked to a few BTO operators I must say they are the balliest SOB's I couldn't imagine coming home being stuck in that thing and having to land because the unit was jammed on the track... Or for that matter your a captive audience during the fire fight... :twisted:

[VonRundstedt]

I watch a LOT of History channel, History International, and when they decide to stick to the facts, Military Channel (they tend to be a bit propagandistic at times) and mostly WW2 history pieces. There are 2 shows which are in my view incredible..."Shootout" and "Battlefield". Shootout takes a pivotal battle and dissects it from both the "big picture" overview and most important, from the individual soldier's stories. Battlefield tends to stick to the strategy / tactical side but is still fascinating. Shootout however will take the elements which REALLY counted on the battlefield--the actions of individual fighting men-and focus on that, with interviews where possible with men who were THERE.
Let me tell you: We do not have among this current generation anyone like those guys. These men who fought the Nazis and Imperial Japanese came from a special place, and had within them something, many things, which we have since lost. In part, I think they represented the true ideals and principles of America, they had within them the spirit of a Declaration of Independance and a Constitution which in their time, was not some abstract concept, or in the words of Georgie W. "Just some damn piece of paper"..or his friend Gonzales who called it "quaint".. These men were Americans, and knew what that meant. They knew what being an American meant, if only in the simplest terms. It meant we were the "good guys". They were fighting against people who represented true evil, and they knew that defeat was not an option. And even if a lot of them did not have so many high minded ideals in mind at the time, they knew when it was time to kick some ass, give no quarter, and kill the enemy. These were not philosophers or lawyers, these were American fighting men, and they became the envy of the world, and had the respect of all nations. And the accounts of their deeds both in films and on written page should be required viewing and reading for all Americans. It used to be.
It was a different time in the world, the 1930's-'40s. I believe that even among the big businessmen and industrialists, there was some semblance of patriotism, some honor. Men in high office still had an idea of why they were there, and knew the fate of Nations and populations hung in the balance of their decisions. The President of the United States of America..that title still meant something great. We simply do not have that any more. Some evil men showed us it meant nothing..they blew off a President's head in front of the whole Nation to get their point across. All men in high office turned from serving the People and the Constitution, to serving the biggest payoff. Greed and Lies replaced Patriotism. So when you look at these punk ass 20-somethings today and tell them "You're an American" it has no meaning to them. They don't know what you're talking about. It is no more significant than saying to him "You're wearing grey sneakers". Because their role models, their examples of Great Americans are who? What has America held up to this generation and proven is great and noble and good? What can we expect of them anyway..they've been shown that the way to the top is through lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering, and denial of any wrongdoing in the process. These are the heroes of the 20-somethings. From the President down to the ghetto street gangsta rappers, the same examples are set forth. The same principles..or complete lack of..are demonstrated to work across the board.
America has no real men anymore. We couldn't fight WW2 in our present condition. Hell, we can't even conquer 3 piss-ant Persian oil reserves these days without letting the greed and lying screw the whole thing up.
So yeah, when you see these pictures..of an American fighting man from that mythical forgotten time, manning their guns, or their posts, sitting atop their tank or in their planes, or on the deck of their ship, know what you are looking at. Know WHO you are looking at. Patriotism, Courage, Strength, Sacrifice, and Honor.

[Kali Komrade]

Yeah if Shootout is on or that other Battlefield is on I usually watch that...

As for the twenty somethings I'm not to far ahead of them but I grew up in a different place than most so most of the people that I know refer to them as the Me Generation... :roll: (Its all about them) like you said Greed

[ohioblacksheep]

Its getting pretty sad, the road that we're heading down. The worst of it, is that the values and freedoms that so many fought and died for are going to be pretty much taken down by Greed....

While I still see my Dad pretty much everyday, and am in no hurry for the time when I won't, its probibly a blessing that most of That Generation won't live long enough to see how bad its going to get. Pretty sad...Lou

[Kali Komrade]

You know its not so dis-heartening that they see the changes because for the most part they enjoyed the best of the best... Its our job to carry on and like they say the tree of liberty needs to be refreshed with the blood of tyrants...

The ME generation in all there greed will find out soon what it is like to live under a socialistic government... It's really two bad for the folks that will be here for the next forty years... :peep:

[VonRundstedt]

Socialist? You think this is socialist? When a Government sells out its country to corporate greed and thinks more of international investment money than its own citizens tax money, that isn't socialism. This is pure fascism in its dictionary word-perfect form. The only socialism you see is what the Old Men allow to exist.
What you have to understand is that both GOP and Democrats want to eventually disarm the American people. Land grabs by Arab investors cannot continue if they don't. The formation of the North American Union and erasure of the Constitution can't happen. It's just that the GOP is so damn arrogant, they think that when the moment comes, they'll just send out the Guard and the private mercenaries and round em all up in a week. The Dems know this won't work, and prefer to disarm the public gradually and as under the radar as possible, avoiding the inevitable 1000 Waco effect.
Make no mistake..they ALL fear us. And they all want us disarmed.

[ohioblacksheep]

An added note here.

Up here in Ohio the Voters passed a law on smokeing in public places.

When I was walking over to my shop my Dad was out getting his paper, and of couse we stoped to talk. His BIG rant was WHY IN THE WORLD would people vote away there rights to Choose !!!
He quit smokeing over 20 yrs ago so he has no dog in the fight. He just can't believe people are that STUPID !!!! His big concern is people have NO IDEA what they are giving away, and its got NOTHING to do with smokeing, its givivng away YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE that pisses him off..

Oh Ya, Von, He uses that word Fascism a LOT these days !!!! He's been around awhile (86 yrs) and has seen it first hand, so I kind of figure he knows what he's talking about...

A lot of the stuff you bring up reminds me of the type of thinking I've heard from him as I was growing up :mrgreen: He would probibly get a good kick out of talking to you . ...Lou

[VonRundstedt]

The people I get a kick out of are the ones who think it's all communist-socialist caused by Liberals. People are so narrow in thier views, they think Iraq is about fighting terrorists. It's amazing. The Big Picture is that ALL politicians have seen the Big Money coming over the hill, and it's not from us American taxpayers anymore. We have that smoking ban crap in Denver now, and people have no idea. It has nothing to do with second hand smoke or public health, because the multi million dollar casinos are miraculously exemt from the ban. Imagine that.
I came up with a theory, and I believe it began around the time of Reagan and went through Clinton and has now been accelerated under the Reich supposedly led (not) by Bush. They are running tests. They keep testing what we will accept as a people. Will we accept the US military invading seemingly insignificant small sovreign nations (grenada, Panama)..test. Will we accept watching the military attack and kill US citizens on their own private property in the US?..test. Will we accept being forceably disarmed under declared emergency conditions?..test. How will we react to a huge Federal building being blown up in a major midAmerican city? Test. How will we react if an announcement is made that a certain vaccine is unavailable? Test. That a certain weird virus may be coming? Test. How will we react to private property and constitutional rights being erased in the name of the public welfare and health? Test.

None of this has anything to do with socialism. It has everything to do with the coming unification of all 3 North American nations, and the needed control over the US population when it finally freaks out. Because at a certain point the people WILL freak out. Even the most dim will get it when they present him with the microchip order and convert all of his money to AmeroDollars and he finds out that his mortgage has been bought by a United Arab Emirates bank, along with the bank holding his mortgage. Or the National Guard simply shows up to evict him from his home because a Saudi funded highway is going through his land.
They'' all wake up eventually. They'll realize that there are no terrorists, except for insignificant rogue bands which have been there for 50 years. They'll realize they've been had, by 9/11. They'll realize that FEMA has a series of concentration camps built across America not for enemies..for US. They'll understand why Cheney has a 5 story nuclear bunker being built under his own house. But by the time they do see it, they won't have a prayer.
Socialist? HA. You are witnessing the rise of the Fourth Reich. The New World Order. And it is Nazi all the way.

[ohioblacksheep]

OK Von,

Now you've disapointed me !!! " They'll all wake up eventually " Do you have any kind of guess how many will be in the " Hmmm, isn't this how its always been ?" line of thinking ??? In this Country of 300, 000,000 now, how many do you think have any clue about much of anything ???? I don't think anyone has any Idea what this " ME" thing is doing to this Country.....Lou

[VonRundstedt]

Sadly, I suppose you're right. There will always be a faction of society..office dwelling briefcase carryers, consultants, brokers, hi rise workers, that echelon of society which would actually die without the support of government and constant police assistance..those guys we'll find crying in the streets when the power goes off and their cel phones and blackberrys quit...yeah, those people will simply do what thier told. They'll live where they're told, eat what thier told, watch what thier told, and go to work where they're told. They figure they have nothing to worry about, they never make any trouble, they follow the rules and pay whatever they're told. Because after all, the government will protect them, the cops will save them with a call to 911, right?
When China has finally had it and the Russians get thier Commie balls back, the nukes will fall like rain. Those people will thankfully be the first to die.

[Kali Komrade]

Okay so there not socialist Von... :banghead: Well the crapola will hit the fan one of these days... It's really sad the state of this nation from the schools to the mindless A$$holes and corporations incahoots... :50cal:

Oh yeah I think I'm gonna get me a Ruger 10/22 just in case the stores close so I can go shoot me some rabbit...

[VonRundstedt]

I didn't say there were no Socialists. That's the cruel joke though. Even those who consider themselves great Leftist-Socialists in this government are still only idiot puppets of the true rulers, allowed to THINK they are doing some great deeds "for the people". It was the Liberal side of the Supreme Court which sided with developers in St Louis on Emminent Domain and redefined the meaning of "in the public interest" and "for the public good". Those poor dimwits actually thought they were taking an action which would increase the property tax base of local municipalities, putting more money into public programs locally. What they actually did was put in place the very instrument the Globalist-Capitalist-Fascists desperately needed to begin the land grabs required for the SuperCorridor from Mexico to Canada, the NAFTA Highway, which will require BROAD interpretation of Emminent Domain. They couldn't steal the millions of acres needed for this project without that court ruling. And of course the 210 mile long, 3 mile wide supercorridor toll highway here in Colorado, wholly funded by the Arabs through the same UAE banks that brought you such wonders as the 9/11 hijackers. It is estimated that over 5000 parcels of land just east of the I-25 corridor will need to be seized to begin this toll road funded and BTW, owned and operated by our enemy. Oh yeah, the toll money goes to them too.
The pseudo-Socialists who are essentially cocktail party Communists wearing thier Leftist badge like a piece of jewelry are really nothing more than hippocrites. You think Pelosi and Feinstein, Schumer, Clinton, all these live like the Common Man? They all feed at the same trough the Fascists do. The lobbyists catering to real true Nazis like Sensenbrenner are handing out money to the other side too. ALL are compromised in the face of corporate billions and Arab petro-dollars. We the People don't get to say shit.
Astrologers and modern day prophets have noted that a celestial alignment not seen in over 200 years will happen again in 2008. Last time it happened was 1776. And it doesn't take Nostradamus to see the signs of serious trouble in this country.
The Democrats got handed this election. By the same forces that have been steering this nation since Eisenhower freaked out publicly over the Military-Industrial Complex. They saw that another sweeping win by obvious Fascists would likely push it off the edge and civil unrest would be inevitable, so they threw some meaningless candy to the babies and let them think they're in charge for awhile. But the Dems still know who's boss. What great socialists.

[VonRundstedt]

I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war

And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs

On the radio talk shows and the T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally can't take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire

There's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names

They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire

Ritchie Havens/Jackson Browne

[swedishmeat]

I read a book 'Alas Babylon', set in the late 50's Florida. Nuclear war begins and the story depicts how a community responds in the following years. Ironically, the local politicians were the first to lose their mind. They had no purpose in the new world. The librarian became the most needed person in town as far as entertainment went. Great book. Gives one a good view of "what would it be like." Many roles will be reversed.
Another great read is "Patriots." This one depicts 'our' role in the breakdown of society.

[VonRundstedt]

Prime Time television has recently tried toying with the inevitable post-apocalyptic in such poo-poo as "Jericho", where a small town isolated on the Kansas plains deals with the first wave of a nuclear attack. Of course, the political directives given to corporate-owned television completely castrates any attempt at truth or reality, answering only now to the Corporate masters and an FCC armed with new powers to bankrupt anyone not on board with the program. Basically, Jericho is a propaganda piece which depicts post nuclear Americans still listening to the Mayor and the Sheriff as the root of all things Good and Trustworthy. The clothes still get washed, the dinner is cooked, and everybody looks damn good. Oh please.
The books you mention are far closer to the truth as it might happen under certain circumstances, but my visions of America post-nuclear aren't even that optimistic, as I watch modern society stripped deliberately of it's ability to support itself and become ever more dependant upon bureaucrats and corporate infrastructures. All you would have to do in this country for the most part is shut off the electricity for a month and stop the trucks from running, and we'd be in our own real life Mad Max/Road Warrior movie in no time flat. I was in Palm Beach in the period of multiple direct hurricane hits not long ago. It rapidly became clear to me that a penninsula was a very bad choice of homesite. Not from the storm. The complete helplessness of the underfunded response agencies and the bottom line corporate mentality of the 30 day billing cycle had made sure there was no fixing anything quickly and no reserve inventory of anything at all..food, water, gas, batteries, anything. By week 3, people were openly loading thier guns to go "shop". Only upon the realization that open war was about to erupt did Jeb Bush put through emergency measures and directives to get this shit fixed NOW. Which of course meant the Conservatives' worst nightmare, spending money.
But it became very clear that if this place could not get through a hurricane season without a civil war, then America must surely be walking along a much finer edge, on the brink of anarchy, than any of us ever suspected. I watched civilization begin to collapse for lack of 3 weeks power and gas.
I find the foothills of the Rockies to be a far more defensible position. And capable of self sufficiency.

[swedishmeat]

My family and I watched 'the day after'. After experiencing the "Great Houston Hurricane Evacuation of 2005" My kids were the first to laugh at the theatrical responses by the public to the nuclear aftermath.
PLEASE..... a semi- orderly line at the only drinking water for days/miles around. Good news. My teens now pay attention when Daddy talks about preparation....for whatever reason. Oh, and the value of THE GUN/ammo

[VonRundstedt]

Oh yeah..THAT piece of Reagan-era fluff. When will it become obvious to all that there is no such thing as "liberal Media"? It's Corporate Media, joined to Government at the bank account. Media gives Government exactly the propaganda it needs, Government gives Media all the deregulation and consolidation it greedily desires. A perfect Fascist union.

You know what I've discovered that has blown me away? SciFi channels' "Battlestar Galactica" rebirth. Don't laugh dude. This is not the "Love Boat in Space" the old one was. This Galactica is not fluff or warm and fuzzy for one relentless second..Battlestar is Bastogne in Space and you don't dare close your eyes. This place is Hell. Total war has destroyed humanity, run it off its' 12 planets, and now 49,000 survivors face real issues. People die. Horribly. Space is cold, unforgiving instant death. The Enemy looks like the humans, you can trust no one. And attack and destruction haunt your every second of precious life. Tense is a gross understatement. This is dark, creepy, cold, and it plays the "humans surviving the holocaust" better than anything I've seen. I come away from watching every episode needing a stiff drink and someone to talk to, it's that disturbing sometimes. This thing is black, unflinching war in space after the destruction of whole planets, not like the pretty cinematic Star Wars or Star Trek universe, in THIS place children starve to death and enemy prisoners are strung up, beaten bloody, and raped. It makes a bigger statement in one hour than a whole season of "Lost" or "24". Well, thats' MY review anyway. There are more practical lessons about human behavior under extreme survival conditions in this show than anything I've seen yet.

[VonRundstedt]

But back on topic: You should have seen Florida try to evacuate with 3 days notice last hurricane. The traffic jams stopped cold at Ft Pierce and did not move for days. Florida is doomed.
There are people who still put total blame on the residents of New Orleans for what happened there. People who say insipid cruel crap like that have never actually been through a hurricane or it's aftermath. If they ever have the experience, they'll never talk shit about New Orleans again. I lived in Florida from 1955 on. You tell me how many major hurricanes I've seen.
It's not that I expect Government to come "save me", no, that's stupid, but I DO expect them to do thier job. Ultimately, my survival is my own responsibility, but if you're going to have agencies called "Federal Emergency" whatever, that would seem to be thier job.
But people don't know the truth. FEMA has been taken over. Put under Homeland Security. Because thier job now is NOT helping the People recover from disasters..it is to help Government recover and protect Government from the people. Read thier new mission statement under HSA.

[swedishmeat]

...'There are people who still put total blame on the residents of New Orleans for what happened there'

That is exactly what the local government did in Houston after that TOTAL FIASCO of an evacuation. The emergency preparation planners in this area were absolutely stunned SILENT prior to the hurricane. they released standard weather watches designed for thunderstorms. THEN after the critiques/reviews came in, (weeks later). it was decided that the PEOPLES were to blame for the congestion on the roadways. They claim we failed to listen to their (nonexistent) instructions & most of us should not have left ( only those in low lying areas. Most residents have no idea what the elevation of their neighborhood is . I ...am aware.
Those dimwits collect a paycheck for doing relatively nothing for years and then when they are called on the carpet... just like politicians.
I have decided that , base on that experience, should a prolonged event occur like that again, the population will be purged in a matter of weeks of those who are not prepared/capable of adapting. Water, food and gasoline were at a premium and the gun did make difference more often than would ever be reported. Many times. those that prepared watched helplessly as the more aggressive simply took it away from them.

[VonRundstedt]

tests. We are being tested like lab rats in preparation for the Big Show.

[swedishmeat]

...I don't know what the test results are so far, however, I have drawn my own conclusions. There are a lot more 'angry white males' out there than the average politician is led to believe. We don't wish to march for our rights or burn a neighborhood or be on the 6 o'clock idiot show talkin' bout OUR____ or demanding something be given us or what be owed us, or who is to blame. What we are is fed up to the brink and...armed.
We simply wish to go to work each day, share quality time with our family, mow our lawns, watch the game & maybe have a beer. :beer:

But...If you march into our neighborhood or threaten our kids/wife the angry white male is provoked too far, the result would most definetly make the news.

[VonRundstedt]

And thus why we must be disarmed of all these "dangerous" weapons. We present a disturbing "X" factor to all of thier computer-generated tactical scenario runs. They can project public reaction to certain events and actions only so far when we are taken into consideration, the "we" being Mr Joe Average whos' actions have always been unpredictable. The only certainty they have is the one which states that we are more controllable disarmed than armed, and a lot less embarassing and expensive.
I keep referring to Waco and the Davidians because it not only provided a vast cache of data to the dark side for the think tanks to form new law and policy from. WE must study Waco every bit as closely, to glean usefull data of a tactical and strategic nature from the ashes. One of the tests of Waco was indeed strategic. Public opinion both nationwide and worldwide was tested to see how carefully controlled it could be. Wild accusations of sexual abuse of children and ritualistic rape of young girls by David Koresh was the number one widely publicized item. The Government itself was fed these lies by planted informants, so the FBI sadly believed it was attacking a cult compound planning a full on assault with automatic weapons of a Texas town to begin a Holy War between the races. They truly felt in thier hearts that children were being abused. They absolutely felt thier mission was justified, so also the public, having been fed carefully these accusations and the idea that these were heavily armed Doomsday cultists bent on domestic terror and raping children. The informant actually accused Koresh of raping and impregnating his mother.. All of the key phrases and words were crafted and fed to a hungry media which dutifully spread the vile ideas 3 times a day, along with the idea that many illegal weapons including machine guns and explosives were in the possession of the Davidians. And prominent in the reports, .50 caliber weapons. None were there.
I lived in Miami most of my life. Most of the center of that city can be described as a long bad episode of Miami Vice with a lot worse wardrobe, gangsta rap, and real blood. I have been witness and seen in the media numerous, NUMEROUS, Federal ops against heavily armed compounds and houses. Nobody is more paranoid than a Latin drug lord on his 5th year of solid cocaine buzz, nobody buys more high powered high dollar weapons. Invariably, whether destroyed or not, the DEA lays out a photo op spread of the collection with the heaps of money and kilo bags piled as high as possible, to make a point to the public how dangerous and horrible these people are and why they all need to die.
No such display was presented to support Waco. Because none existed.

My point is this: If confronted by hostile forces of an official nature instructed to subdue you by any means necessary, the men you face will not know the truth. They will have been briefed that you are a dangerous wanted terror suspect, or a child molester, or a drug lab operator, or all of the above. They will say whatever vile crap necessary to inspire American police and military to go and kill you, another American. The media, now wholly owned and controlled by the Dark Side, will religiously beat that into the public mind, until some of your own family members will actually believe it. You will have a brief window in which to get out communication by non-traditional means before you are sealed off. An independant sattelite uplink to the Internet is preferential equipment, with accounts in multiple to sites such as You Tube, MySpace, anything which will support global dispersion of your uploads and put YOUR video accounts of events before the public. Get your own hosting server and learn how to upload to it also, this will be the last thing they can disable. But by uplink, not phone. Your phone will be cut. Sadly, Koresh tried to get videotaped accounts of the actual scene inside his compound to the outside world, but he had no technology to go around the forces arrayed against him. This is key. The public at large will be fed carefull sound bytes of how horrible you are, until the scene of your home burning with all inside will be cheered in the sports bars like a Bears touchdown. If you put out, worldwide, the unedited truth for the world to see...and they will see it, will it save you? Absolutely not. Understand fully that if you engage these people you have crossed a line from which there is NO return, and nothing will save you. That's a pretty depressing and grim assessment, but completely true. If they need an AC130, they now have authority to use one. Or an Abrams tank, or AH64 attack chopper. All you can hope to do if the day ever comes for you, is to aquit yourself in battle with dignity and honor, get the truth out for others to use against them, and go down like a Man and an American. Because no matter what you own or how much of it, they will kill you eventually, even if it takes a tactical airstrike. Know this without a single doubt, you will have a moment of truth, a choice between a lifetime of orange jumpsuits and chains, or a full blown battle to the Death, no quarter asked or given.. Only you can choose your destiny, and far be it from me to give instructions to people to incite sedition and insurrection, that is not my purpose, and in fact also illegal for now anyway.. My instruction is DEFENSIVE, not offensive, to make sure the truth is known, that the World is aware that your struggle, your battle, is an honorable one, to not allow the grinning baboons at 6 and 11 to make a common petty criminal of you in the public mind. Or you may decide to simply go quietly in chains and let them and the newsmonkeys say what they will about you, it's really each man's choice should such a terrible day actually come.