So... Another What if scenario....

[Kali Komrade]

So... Another What if scenario....

Okay you've prepared all your life for this moment... With a show of force the UN is attacking U.S. soil and now there's a ton of these non american retards in light Blue Nato garb running around with weapons suspending peoples constitutional rights in the name of world peace...

Now we've heard all sorts of folks say I have enough supplies (ie. food & ammo) and I am completely prepared for any event... But are you??? Most skirmishes will exhaust ammo quickly if not in minutes. I also know a number of us could say we have quite impressive firearm collections but do they really contain the tools we would need to crusade in the name of freedom...

What I am getting at is the necessity of a collection to contain particular calibers in the event that you would have to obtain ammunition from any attacking force...

What calibers would be the cornerstone of a well supplied tool box???

Lets here it guys...

[ohioblacksheep]

What calibers would be the cornerstone of a well supplied tool box???


For the most part, the ammo the previous owner of your newly aquired gun was carrying.....Lou

[VonRundstedt]

The most common and easy to aquire from raided opposition stockpiles. I own weapons in every major military caliber.

Hey, if we're on the ammo subject...where in hell did all the South African .308 go? And whats' up with these sharks on the gun auctions trying to get $70 for a battle pack?

Is this just the year-end tax purpose inventory run down and all the dimwits are panicking?

[VonRundstedt]

Back to the subject: Adapt. Be ready to use anything available. What are NATO forces carrying? 5.56, 7.62, and 9mm. I love my 1911A1 but it won't be much good 6 months into a collapse of social order.

In the words of Gen. Patton: "Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of Man".

Be prepared to run and gun. Mobility is the key to survival. Stockpiling will only get you through an initial engagement but you CANNOT allow it to become a seige..you will lose that battle every time, because once cut off from the outside, what you have is what you have. And you couldn't have enough no matter what you stocked up on. Forces determined to neutralize you and your group will sit outside your gun range for a week, a month, a year. Your greatest enemy is the long range tactical sniper. What was learned in the Waco exercise has been adopted as doctrine and the rules of engagement are much more subtle. One sniper shot from 1500 yds is much more controllable in the media than a long rowdy seige with Hueys and Bradleys. That fiasco will not likely happen again unless a large rebel force is encountered with vast fortifications in a rural area away from the prying media eyes. Much more acceptable to put one sniper bullet through each member of your group and announce a mass suicide.
Mobility. Fire, maneuver, fire. It is the only way to survive the coming anarchy.
And if confronted by organized Government forces, do not underestimate what they will not "dare" to do. Tactical airstrikes are on the table. The act signed by Bush a month or so back gave him executive power to engage domestic unrest with the FULL FORCE of the US military on his exclusive order. INSIDE the US, against US Citizens if necessary.
Think mobility.

[Kali Komrade]

So were looking at calibers like...

7.62x39
7.62x51
5.56x45
5.45x39 ???
6.8mm Remington???
5.7x28???
30-06
9mm
45 ACP
40 S&W ???

The 40 smith most of our municiples use so I can see the advantage for owning one but what about some of the new calibers like the 6.8 5.7x28 and 5.45x39 anyone know to what extent those calibers are being used... I understand the chinese will start issuing a new rifle to there troops in the 5.45x39 caliber soon if not already...

[VonRundstedt]

You're going to have your best success "scrounging" ammo or raiding it from your adversaries (or taking it from their cold dead asses) if you stick to the calibers of the standard issue battle rifles, which in US-Nato is the 5.56 and 7.62x51...most domestic Police tac units are on 5.56 and 9mm M4 carbine and MP5 weapons, with 7.62x51 still the sniper caliber of choice. And 9mm pistols. If US regulars or Guard units engage, they'll all have nice Beretta M9's. You're correct that a LOT of domestic Police are on 40 S&W now, but I wouldn't depend on that being a long term ammo supply in a total societal meltdown. Those guys are going to go home to defend their families, not guard the Mayor or the bank for the rest of their lives.

So front line primary weapons in 5.56, 7.62x51, and 9mm handgun. If you have the ability to stock enough to make them initially worthwhile, the Soviet calibers are a good secondary with AK's in 7.62x39 and the 5.45mm, because eventually you will run across some ammo from civilian stocks or the Great Godz forbid, foreign forces.

The newer wacky calibers that companies like FN are playing with won't be common unless the US Military decides to throw away 40 years worth of current weaponry. Nah. Of course if you DO find yourself up against some dipshit NATO invaders from France go ahead and grab one of those goofy-ass P90 space guns and all the ammo they have and blast away.

The greatest lesson in modern warfare is one which the organized military forces refuse to learn. I guess it's not profitable to have no massive fortifications and bases, and who would get the food court concession on a totally mobile force? But if you were to model your strategic doctrine and tactics after anything, it would be guerilla warfare in the most classical sense. Only special ops (Rangers, Marine Recon, Delta, SEALS, certain elite airborne and Green Beret) train in this type of warfare and are tactically proficient and indeed quite excellent at it. You have to be prepared not for a long seige at your fortified home, you have to be prepared to go Native American..never get pinned down, never establish a permanent base, live entirely off the land, always moving, strike the enemy when you have tactical advantage and hit n run, and adopt one of my favorite Native American warrior philosophies: Anything which you cannot carry away on your horse is useless.
Make sure your horse is an all-fuel diesel.

[ohioblacksheep]

Hmmm,

For the most part, anything you can't carry on your back, or in your pockets, is going to create a problem for you. Also, any more your " horse" is just an easy to spot target. If you have anything that requires a road, just remember the term " Game trail" Thats pretty much what they will be for anyone looking for you....Lou

[VonRundstedt]

As true as this is, there are some things to consider, and all determined by your AO..

Considering the initial description of the "anarchic" conditions, that is, the often ballyhooed Wayne LaPierre theory that the UN wants to overthrow and disarm America, I would only need to point out the nature of the opfor and their dismal record in combat. The UN is not a highly effective fighting force..and America, in spite of what any diplomat, politician, or law enforcement official thinks, is not nor has it EVER been "under control". There are places as we speak in major US cities which are virtually off limits to police. There are heavily armed enclaves of private citizen "militia" groups all across this vast wide open nation, in areas so difficult and so remote they aren't often seen by the locals. There are a good half dozen gangs in Miami alone who can bring firepower equal to most modern infantry units.

But should the absurd actually be attempted, you will find yourself in one of these environments. Urban, Suburban, Rural, or Wilderness. Ohio is correct inasmuch as in high mobility scenarios, the lighter the better. If you and your group are highly capable outdoorsmen and have the ability to go totally "mountain men", living off the land and only making or aquiring what you need as you need it, of course this is the ideal situation and the perfect structure to conduct guerilla ops. Light, fast, able to melt into the landscape and disappear without leaving a big "footprint" for your enemy to follow. No "game trail", no base camps, no clue.

But not everyone will have this advantageous structure. There will be families. And children. And as Humanity always does, it will form groups and small social units for mutual defense and support. Sure, many will be able to live as Mad Max..but many more will be living like the "refinery clan" (i.e. "Road Warrior") where small organized groups are more advantageous for the survival of the very young, the older among us, the ill, the disabled, and just plain old Families. You're not going to send your family scattering to the four points, you're going to keep them close. I happen to be in that category.

Most would think in terms of some large fortified homestead, out in the middle of nowhere, to be defended, something of a ranch combined with survival camp. Indeed, under many scenarios, this will do nicely, as most studies and simulations conducted on total breakdown of society scenarios point out that there is much more of a problem defending against the inevitable masses of roving scavengers and raiders than defending against any organized force. The sheer size of this country and numbers of our people are the main advantage here, as the forces of oppression will simply be VERY busy and possibly never get around to messin' with your little outpost, and a disorganized rabble will likely disperse and move on to easier pickins' when confronted by a rain of steel at 1000 yds.

But if the nightmare happens and your little family hideaway is targeted by organized forces, the only option is to get out quickly taking the absolute necessities along and do not allow yourself and your family unit to be encircled in a seige. Unless you have a LOT of friends who will charge in from behind your attackers and turn the battle your way, the outcome is ALWAYS the same. Once contained, they will sit back and wait for the tactical sniper teams to take care of the problem. And one by one, you and your people will fall.

Yes yes I know...get the book at Amazon.com in the spring, on sale for $9.95 for a limited time!

ok, so I do go on a bit..but does anyone think that there is not SOME sort of huge problem coming over the hill for America within our lifetime? Does anybody here think that this country can simply maintain status quo at the rate we are going right now?

[50 Shooter]

We might find out in 2 years. :shock:

I doubt the UN couldn't muster a force that could take on armed American CITIZENS. They would try but our Police and Military would be brought in to help.

They would also use the media to make us look like lunatics, there wouldn't be any pro 2A speach allowed, probably inact Martial Law. Some people would protest but in the end I feel they would just bend over and accept it. :roll:

I seriously believe that if Gore, Kerry, Hillary... get's into office we will have another Civil War in America. This time it will be worse, you can bet on that. :cry:

[VonRundstedt]

Gore, Kerry, Hillary? These are silly people. What you need to worry about is the complete failure of the MidEast / Persian conquest and what this defeat has done to us economically and in the world as far as our Superpower status. Had the plan in 2000 been put into COMPETENT hands..guys who knew what the F they were doing...we would right now have our big boot across the Saudis' necks and have the Chinese by the nuts, because we would OWN Iraq, Iran, and Syria. Do you know WHY old man Bush was sobbing like a baby when he was making that speech about Jeb, and Integrity and Honor? It's because in 1999 a battle broke out about who would be the appointed President for the coming Unipolar Moment and takeover of the mideast oil. The SMART guys were on Jeb..Jeb is educated, crafty, and ruthless. But the chickenshits..the Cheney / Rumsfeld / Wolfowitz faction, felt that a usefull cheerleader, a stupid talking head, would serve the operation better..someone who would say absolutely ANYTHING and ask no questions. George W fit the bill perfectly. I would pay my life savings to have the transcripts of THOSE meetings..and the arguements on who to choose...
Well, the Industrialist / Globalist money was bet on George, to Daddy Bush's strong protest, and Jeb was kicked to the curb. The proven Nixon-era losers got in and the smart guys, the REAL big brains, got snubbed.

Well, it's all crumbled to the ground. Georgie W. couldn't even get Part 1 right, and now the whole op is in ruin. Gore? Hillary? Piss-ants dude. Nobodys. Right now you have the Chinese, our sworn enemy, thinking about how we just tried to cut off or control 70% of their oil. You have the Saudis, who Daddy Bush promised a secure mideast to for trillions in backing for this 3-nation blitzkreig which has failed in a heap. You have enough foreign debt, all bet on this one hand..taking Persian / Mideast oil reserves and getting a stranglehold on the Chinese, ready to be called in all at once, to take the dollar into the basement for 100 years. Which now makes the Bush plan to unify the whole North American continent into ONE big commerce bloc like the European Union a virtual NECESSITY, to SAVE us from total disaster financially. The dollar is now such a liability, that certain financial factions think it is time for it to go. Forever. Can you say Euro? What will they name the North American Union currency? The Amero?

No No No kids, this Hillary / Kerry bullshit is piss in a hurricane compared with what is REALLY about to happen to us. This winner-take-all hand that the Neo Conservative Industrialists and Globalist powers played for total control of world energy has blown up in their faces, and it's the fault of those they put in charge. Dubyah, Cheney, Wolfowitz, all losers. So now Dad has to call in his clean-up team..Baker, and Kissinger...guys who know how to reel it back in. I just pray they came in with enough time to save all our asses from the chaos that Dubyah and Cheney have created.