OK ,Lets hot this up..

[Phalanx]

We are going to make tubes while we still can !!!!! Kali help me out here ,
Found my nitch. WW1,WW2 ,BATF Breechloaders , Krupps, Ord rifles, golf ball ?got a welder i can help. How to load ,where to get parts ,1.75 under $500.00 ? BEEN THERE. All the way to 20k, Wood or rubber rims.

[Kali Komrade]

Hell I'd just like to make a WWII style mortar that'll launch some golf balls but how in the hell do you cap the ends so you don't get blown to hell...

[Phalanx]

well i dont wish to talk a lot but..... can i show you ??? do you have a welder and a tube ? if not i have tubes ,Rich can weld. Pretty simple stuff.

[Kali Komrade]

Yeah I got one crappy Harbor Frieght Mig that I can tack with till I can get it to a real welder... Course I might be able to weld better if I didn't have a crappy mig.... :mrgreen:

[Phalanx]

Kali i am still trying to figure out this posting thing . The son in law is coming out to walk me through it today so i can show more stuff.

[Kali Komrade]

Cool hey man I understand... Hell I didn't know how to get the print screens until in another thread gunrunner told me... and for some of us we have to be walked through on how to do this stuff in person... It's just the way we are built I guess... :coffee:

[Phalanx]

Well we are cavemen,but i will pit Dan on anything electrical,or anything geologic.
Go ahead ,give me your best shot ?Schematic from start to finish .tell me what you are trying to do ? or better yet ,what you started to do,and what you wanted to achieve? Full wave bridge rectifiers ,Caps, resisters ,ICs ,NPN and PNP transistors anything you put on the board,Jimmy the drawings ,i will find the fault,and tell you this will not work.
Fault lines ,where and how, and the names. Water tables ,Drift angles ,,go for it. OK i am so stupid i cant post a link ,but i can find oil ,and i can fix the equipment that finds it,and they pay me for that. Not posting links.

[poverty ridge]

OK Phalanx-- You have just about got me bitten by the bug, I am seriosly considering putting a cannon together. May have to make a trip North to get info from you.

And all of this is because you typed " Bastard" LOL

[Phalanx]

Poverty ,sorry ,my guns are ,Bastards ,i have no idea who the fathers are ,I tryed DNA ,but it just didn't work. we don't talk a lot about it ,their feelings get hurt ,then they get angry. I know they sure spring up when i write to Dan ???? Dan did you pork a little iron in your day ???

[franks71vw]

Cannons are nto subjected to the same laws as friearms are they? thus the 4473 form etc??

[Phalanx]

No Frank they are NOT ,they are simple muzzle loaders.They only get sticky when you make them a Breech loader. Then that is state to state ,not so much Fed. I have the compliance letters if you need one .Funny though ,in all these years i never had to show one. If the Breech isn't permanently attached to the tube ,as with a hinge ,twist and lock ,it isn't considered a breech loader . A lot of the guys just used large pipe thread plugs with a BIG handle.

[Dan Wilson]

Dan did you pork a little iron in your day ???

I'll never tell :shock:

Dan

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/FTFFTW/funnys/shirts/obama_lrg.jpg

[KABAR2]

Cannons are nto subjected to the same laws as friearms are they? thus the 4473 form etc??

Depends on the cannon, anything over 50 cal that takes fixed ammunition is classed as a DD, original Breech loading artillery made before 1898 gets a pass, modern repro black powder breech loaders with a external screw type breech copying the Whitworth system (bag guns) seem to be o.k. Bag guns that has internal threads ATF seems to class as a DD especially if it has a rifled barrel. They seem to class semi fixed ammo (bag powder) the same as a cartridge fired cannon, ignition is also an area that they look at loose powder, fuse, friction primer ok, percussion primed....... like a large rifle primer, or blank cartridge...???

Muzzle loading cannon original or repro have no Federal Restrictions, but check your state laws, a fellow in NJ landed in hot water when he built one,
but I think it had more to do with firing it in a park, the Ball Bearing he fired from it hit an elderly woman's house, it entered through the kitchen wall, continued through an interior wall into a bathroom, where it bounced off the ceramic tiled walls destroying the sink, toilet, tub, and tile work!
but it is best to check local laws.

[Phalanx]

Allen ,i have seen some Armstrong's also and they seem to be OK ,just look at the price tag :shock: You are right about the fact of a Gun having a chamber that will take a casing ,then being above 50 cal with rifling. The WW1 guys tell me ATF is more concerned about exactly how this,,Breech,, Operates . On a safety scale ,a regular Breech isn't worth a damn with BP ,as it becomes nasty ,hard to clean in the field ,and gets hard to lock. The Armstrong's i saw did have a hinge ,but they were more like you were dogging down a hatch ,than locking a breech. They are OK because the were built originally in 1888 . I have a photo of one ,but it doesn't show how it all worked , I only got to see them fire it. Some Parrotts were converted to breech loaders late in the 1800s , I cant say how they worked ,but i have a photo of one of them also ,but it was taken back in the 1800s ,it was on a shore battery.

[Kali Komrade]

Well... Guys I have a 1.75 tube I'd like to use to fire some golf balls... How should I properly plug the breech end of it... the tube thickness is 3/16" of an inch I have shorter one that I just rosette welded a plug in there but the longer tube I worry more about the pressure situation...

[Phalanx]

Kali ,Find a steel dowel the size of your bore ,drive it in about 2in. with about an inch sticking out the rear .Weld the crap out of it ,grind it to look pretty .Drill a 3/16 flash hole and your done.

[Kali Komrade]

Okay then I'll do that I had a plug for it but it seemed a little too loose... Should I drill some holes around that 2 inch length to do some rosette welding or just weld the piss outta the bottom...

Let me run this idea by you as well... Okay the plug I started on I counter sunk a hole in it for the charge and I drilled from the outside of my tube to this pocket for the hole for the fuse that way the hole which the fuse is place through has a little less stress on it...

Any thoughts...

[KABAR2]

Countersunk hole works well with mortars, and howitzers witt a short barrel, but you would have issues placing your charge in the center chamber.

As to welding a plug, I still like physical threads attaching it to the tube. I would hate to guess if the weld is going to hold this time, or when a stress fracture may occur. if you do weld I would recommend heating both peices first, welding and allowing to cool gradually, normalizing the metal this way will help reduce stress fractures.

Wall thickness is also important!

Remember black powder has no remorse & is unforgiving.

[Phalanx]

Kali ,Allen is right a lot of people use threads .Trouble with haveing threads that you cant remove is the same as haveing a plug that is to loose. Wet swabing and cleaning will allow rust to form .Cannon LTD and Southbend both use plugs , the chamber is heated ,the plug cooled ,to a very tight fit .Then a weld around the outside , Go to LTDs web site ,istill think she has how they make thier barrels on there .The weld allows for disassembly if that ever is needed. Stuck rounds ,other problems ,of course they would neutralize the powder first . Once i lost my screw half way down the barrel on a dry swab ,it just poped of the end of the pole .We tryed everything to get this out with no luck .Good thing it was during a swab. I trickled some powder into the flash hole ( very little ) used a friction primer ,and POP out she came.

[Kali Komrade]

Yeah... Good point we all know when steel rusts it actually expands creating gaps etc...

[franks71vw]

Found this interesting
http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm :horse:

[Kali Komrade]

Found this interesting
http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm :horse:

Hmmm... I find that interesting too... Funny thing is by the time you put all that work into building the barrel your at about the cost of just buying one... I wonder if the barrels you find at various sites are constructed in the same manner...

[GUNRUNNER5150]

damn that was a huge F'in lathe :shock: cool project tho, well out of my abilities with all that machining and stuff.

[Phalanx]

Kali,go to Hernironworks .com .They have barrels at really good prices. My first guns had Herns ,some say they are not so good but i never had any trouble with them. They come rough ,so you will need to sand them ,then use bondo.These guys cast them in cast Iron with the sleeve.Dixie gun works only uses Hern and i have to be honest ,i never heard of a Hern blowing up.

[KABAR2]

I don't want to start a war but before you discount threads because of rust, threaded breech plugs have been used since the time of the matchlock on thousands of black powder guns, most of them if properly cared for had been cleaned with hot water, I have had the breech plugs out of flint lock musket barrels that were 200+ years old, they had continued their working life converted to percussion, and ended as abused sporterized guns left to molder in an attic or barn under less than ideal conditions, other than some rust at the first thread at the face of the breech I would consistently find bright metal like the day it was put together. This was after a hard life, some were not cleaned properly and the black powder fowling being hydroscopic would create a good film of rust inside.

If you are going to build a tube go to a thick or heavy wall tube that is D.O.M (drawn over mandrel ) this stuff is tougher than the other stuff, D.O.M is used in Hydraulics so it has to withstand high pressure.

I want to see everyone enjoy this hobby without sustaining injuries.

[Phalanx]

Allen,.both ways work. just what a bloke wants. I am not into mortars ,i like cannon. What is a Mortar going to do? drop a bowling ball on you ? How about that ball going 12FPS ,7 tons of energy :hail: We could make a hell of a forum for these guys ,How bout we talk. I am honored to see another ,BP fan on ,,,some site ,,,,,.You are my friend,no worries.

[Phalanx]

Just can show you how Cannon barrels are made,at some of the best. I will admit that i know nothing about mortars. But in BP the basics are the same.. Full scale tubes i know about ,Shot a Howitzer this week end with Grape shot ,love the Howitzers. Shot was 44cal ,5 pounds of it,A light charge out of a Bud light can. Man you should have seen it !! 10ft sweep ,100 yards. Took about 2 inches of cardboard as packing though. Concrete balls on the SB, 12 Lbs ,4 , 1/2 in. OMG ,Put holes in a Chevy you don't want to know about.

[Kali Komrade]

Hey... I just want ideas...

So an internally threaded breech will work... Any online sources for the Tubing...

I'd like to build a BP gun that looks like the moder howitzers the military is using today... Also would like to mortar some golf balls too...

The antique cannon well eventually be a must have... They are just too much fun...

[Phalanx]

No Worries ,I think i didn't relay what i was trying to say very well.What i saw was threading done poorly. Some company's use that system ,but i believe they have the threaded plug seat on a shoulder. Others like Hern cast the entire thing with the steel sleeve suspended in the middle .Some say the early tubes from them were warped ,or not centered .They even used water pipe with the seam so your sleeve was only about 1/4 in thick. South Bend does it this way ,then bores it straight and smooth,you end up with a one inch thick liner ,polished like a mirror made of 4140,,,NICE.

[Kali Komrade]

Looks like Hern's website hasn't been updated since 2003 I'm sure those prices don't stand but who knows... I checked out there website saw there dislosure thing before ordering a cannon... Didn't find anything about steel liners guess I could email them and find out more info...

Would mind a half scaler full scale would be a little much for me to haul around...

[Phalanx]

Kali give them a call. Of course they say the guns are for decoration ,the reason they get away with that is the flash hole isnt drilled. It is dempled where you need to drill it though.A lot of tube makers do that ,i only know of two factorys where the hole is drilled when you get the gun.Then the liability is on you. Dixie drills the barrels they get from Hern ,Go to thier site and type in ,Cannon. I talked to the owner of Hern years ago ,and he told me all his barrels have a steel sleeve. Sometimes on GB you see complete guns for sale with Herns .

[franks71vw]

Can you melt wheel weights and form a lead ball and shoot it out of these cannons? Also is there any load data for them as the website says they are for decorative purposes only?

[Phalanx]

They say that Frank ,but if you talk to the owner he will tell you they do fire ,but you have to drill the flash hole . As for liablity,and the holes not drilled it makes them Decrative guns .Yes i have used wheel weights ,and i can give you the name of a man in California who makes real nice molds to any size you wish. Always have your mold made 1/16th under bore size ,this allows you to use your ball wading,the wading improves accuracy ,and velocity greatly. As i said once a friend showed me that useing industrial paper towels works great. Get an old film can ,you know the plastic ones ,they hold about 1 ounce of black powder ,or steal your old ladys measureing spoons. Get a PVC coller close to the size of your bore ,set your foil on top of it and use a wooden dowel to push it into the coller and mold to fit.Measure your powder ,fold over the foil ,take a marker and write on the charge what you have. Rule of thumb is 1 ounce per inch of bore ,this is the safety range. Cannon powder is good stuff ,but i have used 3 F ,WARNING ,the finer your powder ,the higher your pressure ,it will turn your gun into a magnum ,use half what you would with cannon powder .Best to stay with Cannon BP ,it is low pressure and a lot safer till you know your loads.

[Kali Komrade]

Okay so now theres special powder just for cannons huh... Where do you get that from... I'm used to just buying pyrodex and stuff like that... so is there a special maker or a cannoneer's store???

Yeah I figured as much everyone is scared of liability these days...

I was wondering how ya mad a black powder pellet that sure sounds like the easy way thats for sure...

[Phalanx]

Gun stores cant sell BP anymore ,it has to be stored in a Magazine.Any Muzzleloader guy should be able to tell you where to go ,the guy i get mine from keeps all kinds of explosives and sells them to construction and has some sort of License . Oh Frank i forgot ,once you get a mould try cement ,it is a hoot,but only works in a smooth bore.

[KABAR2]

Black powder comes in several types A grade which requires special licensing and is used for Blasting, G grade sporting powder which is what
we are concerned with here.

the coarsest grade is Cannon powder

after that there is the following:

Fg is for shotguns 12 ga. & up muskets .69 and up it can also be used in cannon and mortars but burns a bit faster than cannon powder

FFg musket - rifles & shot guns 50 cal & up

FFFg rifles below 50 cal. and flint & percussion pistols

FFFFg priming powder for flintlocks and cannon


FFFFFg is a super fine grade it may be classed as flash powder.

grain size

Cannon Grade 4.76-1.68
1FG 1.68-1.19
2FG 1.19-.59
3FG .84-.29
4FG .42-.15

5FG .149

Hope that helps a little.


Allen <><

[Phalanx]

:wow: Allen i haven't seen those specs in years . It seems all the BP guys try to hide out now days . Gang Banger ain't going to know what to do with a ball and cap ,but they will kill you grave yard dead. So far BP hasn't been a problem to the Feds ,all it will take is that one jerk ,and Congress with make our hobby worse than a 50BMG. A rancher friend of mine had an old stucko house on his land ,he let us shoot at it with the Ord. Rifle. The entry hole was 1 foot ,it went through walls ,and out the back with an exit of 4 FT. and kept going. Ord Rifle is a pain though ,if i had it to do over i would want smooth bore ,making it what ? an Ord. Gun? Cannon powder is a lot more forgiving ,you start using the ,F, stuff you can see it in the gun. Faster and cleaner but ,,,,MAN,,,,she barks. 1200 pound gun and she rocks back 4 feet and comes off the ground 5 inches. Better have a real good tube.