long live pelosi

[swedishmeat]

...ha.
Now that I have your attention, let's discuss those politics.
The topic of the day is " will our beloved hobby be threatened in the NEW reign or will the libz/ dems be busy un iraqing America for the next couple of years."
I see Bush rolled over immediately and gave up Rummy. I was no fan of the man, but the loyalty factor seemed shallow.
Will Laura run against Hillary or .....

what do yuuse guys think?


Hey Von...you still here?

[Slick]

what do yuuse guys think?

I think I wouldn't want to be an Iraqi right now..... Any of them that were "seen" as having been cooperative with coalition forces will be the first to be executed. Imagine the "pucker factor" they probably feel right now - especially since our withdrawl will invoke Iran's incursion into Iraq to take adantage of the spoils of the actual progress that had been made by US influences.

The Dem's will have effectively created another Iran, but will be busy patting themselves on the back (while the killing continues) claiming they "ended" the war..

[VonRundstedt]

Now that they've tried for years to do it on the cheap, two choices:

1) Put 750,000 troops on the ground, 4 divisions of armor, full air support, and take Iraq as the central base and fuel / ammo depot, then roll on into Iran and Syria. CLEAN HOUSE BIG... BTW: THAT was actually the ORIGINAL PLAN. Bush and his people fired or "early retired" every General who suggested this. They chose to instead believe they could do it on the cheap and while there, make a buck or two.

2) Admit you screwed the dog and get out as orderly as possible.

Which one do you think the American people want now?

[Slick]

Which one do you think the American people want now?

That would depend on which "American" people you were to ask....

If "everyone" thinks this was was about "oil" - then I say we TAKE the goddamn OIL.. It's not like the rest of the world is going to "dislike" us anymore, so I say we make the best of the bad situation.

[VonRundstedt]

Well, it was never ENTIRELY about the oil. It is a huge part of it, but just saying it was about oil is far too simplistic.

See, these corporate-boardroom types we have in the modern GOP are a far cry from the guys I used to actually admire..what we now call the "Goldwater" republicans..guys who did some pretty outrageous stuff, but they really had the good of the Nation in their hearts. These modern-day NeoConservatives are from a New school. A mixture of Leo Strauss NeoCon mixed in with a bit of the old Cold War mentality owing much to the Military-Industrial complex, and unfortunately infused with a very strong far Right neo-Naziism which admires the efficiency of the Police State and the Fascist doctrine of allowing the Industrialists and Corporations to steer foreign policy. This is not Patriotism, it is Corporatism.

In case you missed it, any rational debate between the opposing sides has vanished. We instead now have disintegrated into a political atmosphere of almost Totalitarian slogans. You're with us or Against us..America-Haters..Cut and Run..bla bla bla..

The original plan, as was formed in the major Think Tanks of the corporations and Defense Industries..the PNAC group, the Rand group, etc..was to use the "unipolar moment", that moment in time where the United States was at last the worlds ONLY viable superpower, to make a bold and daring military move to once and for all time ensure that position for America. A plan was formed in the strategy meetings of these organizations, and that plan was to take Iraq in a quick decisive move, kick Saddam to the curb, install our own "democratic" (puppet) government there, and then build up a massive centrally located military force (those 14 bases we hear so much about) and roll on through Iran, taking them out, then do the Syrians while we're at it. Nothing less than the total conquest of 3 nations within an 8 year period. The risks (as we've painfully learned) were huge..but the benefits if successful, would be enormous and change the map forever.

By pulling this op off, we take the second largest oil reserves in the MidEast / Persia region. Then when Iran is ours, we take THAT huge oil producing region and guess who we OWN? The Chinese. Those guys we owe several trillion bucks to, remember THEM? The Chinese are NOT our friends, but cutting off 70% of their oil would make them a whole lot more friendly. And much better Wal Mart shoppers. In the process of course we get rid of, once and for all, a big pain in the ass between the Sunni and Shia by simply killing them off, or letting them kill each other off.
And of course Syria, that old Enemy of Israel, supplier of countless weapons to every nut job in the world, well, nobody is going to cry tears of sadness watching Syria burn.
It was a bold and daring plan. The best minds in the Right wing world were brought into this. Kissinger. Baker. Wolfowitz. Negroponte. Bush Sr. ALL highly experienced dedicated people. And had that faction gotten exactly what they wanted, it WOULD have been a complete success, and America would have the world by its nuts right now. But there was a SPLIT in the organization..the Cheney-Rumsfeld group. Cheney-Rumsfeld, the veterans of the Nixon impeachment, the lap dogs of the petroleum industry and defense industries. Cheney-Rumsfeld had the key..the support of Big Energy and the Defense sector. They maneuvered themselves into the drivers seat using that leverage, and THAT is where it all fell apart. The Big Brains wanted a candidate in 2000 with credibility..Jeb Bush, or McCain as a second choice. But the Cheney group saw that as dangerous..those guys were too smart to play along when it got dirty ..so George W. was their man. A pliable puppet. A talking head. Someone of simple mind and no morals who would sign off on anything.

Iraq, my friend, was supposed to indeed be nothing more than a comma, like George let slip out in a recent interview. It was supposed to be 6 months at best. We were to swoop in with 500,000 troops and full armor and air assets, take that place away from Saddam, be greeted as Liberators as Chalobi convinced the Cheney group we would, and be built up and resupplied for the push into Iran. But they screwed up Phase One. They didn't even get past the FIRST OPERATION. They cheaped out, they sub-contracted, they believed propaganda instead of their OWN intel people, and they FAILED. My friend, they FAILED. The whole glorious operation, the dream of American domination of the World, of our control of oil markets, of getting China under our thumb, of eliminating the HEART of Islamic Terrorism, it has FAILED. Because of liars, and greedy bastards, and traitors who had their eye on their own profits instead of the GOAL. And who is stepping from the shadows to begin cleaning up the mess? Bush Sr., Baker, Kissinger, etc etc...

So now with this as background, you see the two choices. Either you enact a general draft, call up a million men, and go into that place with the overwhelming force that all of Colin Powells' people originally said would be needed..and FINISH THE JOB. Or you gather up your broken ego, your bankrupted treasury, and your demoralized military and go home with nothing.

What do you think is about to happen?

PS: I'll now reel this big fish back on topic....

[VonRundstedt]

I'm a Left leaning somewhat Liberal minded guy, but no fan of the DLC type Democrats like the Clintons, and certainly have no use for Schumer and Pelosi. I'm a old school Kennedy democrat. Sure, talk peace, but keep McNamara on the phone and the bombers fueled...

The panic I see running amok in the gun community is insane. Oh mind you, I don't mind having a few thousand spare rounds of .50 cal to sell right now and a fresh reloading press..it's gonna be a REAL green Christmas if this keeps up. My UPS man hates me. I'll have to give him a nice bonus...

Is Pelosi completely anti-gun. Yes. Is she the Dictator of America? No. She is Speaker of the House. ok. So what? The Senate is a one-seat majority. And you still have Dimwit Dubya in the White House 'til 08. Pelosi, if she had her dream, would outlaw every firearm in America and every round of ammunition, we know that. Clinton and Schumer have had a bill for a nation wide .50 caliber ban on their desks for 6 years. So what? They can call up committees and floor any bill they want, they still need the votes and a Presidential signature.

You should be worried about Republicans turning on you to save their own asses, not nutty Leftists. What we need to do is concentrate on supporting the people who will oppose crazy new gun regulations, on BOTH sides of the aisle, because there are Democrats who are not in Pelosi's camp on this. Your bigger worry is guys who are GOP but have taken a whuppin and might be thinking the road to the White House looks more Liberal now.

In the mean time, I'll enjoy the panic buying.

[swedishmeat]

indeed,
they have screwed the pooch in Iraq. But it may have been the plan to drag this out as long as the american people will put up with it. Just like in Vietnam, (Brown & Root) and now Iraq, (Halliburton) makes a mint each month the war, err conflict continues. It is the 'casualties be damned as long as I get rich' mentality.
A quick and simple assault would negate that income stream.

My assessment of my review.... very negative and factual . but I do believe that most wars now will include profit and loss assessments, financially speaking .

[VonRundstedt]

Well no, don't misinterpret that..even in total victory, the contractors get fat. In fact, victory is really what they plan for, because there's much MORE money in victory than in a standoff or defeat. You have to remember that the worlds biggest offshore oil fields are located...yes..the South China Sea off the North Viet coast. We never intended to "win" VietNam and LEAVE. We intended to WIN VietNam and STAY THERE FOREVER. What kind of money is in THAT for all the contractors?

Same with Iraq. They never intended to just kick out Saddam, set up a government and LEAVE. Oh no no..We were to WIN Iraq, STAY there building huge bases and mounting an operation to take out Iran and Syria, and with all THAT going on, how much was a victory worth to Haliburton? A LOT. Jeez man, 14 full time military bases running 24/7 ops? The guy with the toilet paper contract is a millionaire..imagine the REST of the logistics.

If they drag it out, it will be to see how much of their projected loss they can still reel in. But certain people are already talking about my Option One...build up forces, get over a half million REGULARS on the ground, and take the place once and for all. Someone in DC is reading my posts. A lot. Because that's the discussion in Washington right now.

[Slick]

VERY good (and well thought out) points to be sure.. I tend to be fiscally conservative and socially a bit more liberal – a Libertarian probably fits me best. I’ve tended to avoid thinking “globally” from a personal perspective and look to take advantage of what I see coming. For example, I loaded up on guns I knew would increase in value in years past and did VERY well. I’ve kind of found my way back to that form of thinking, as I believe we’re in for another “wave” of sweeping anti-gun laws. My only real fear is that someone could go so far as to propose “confiscation” – which would topple my investment strategy. Why should anyone have to part with assets that they bought for speculation? They shouldn’t… If our country were to swing that far to the left, real chaos could result after enough “Waco’s & Ruby Ridges” were to happen in a small time frame. Imagine the rampant fear that could result – enough to weaken us as a nation and make us (even more) vulnerable to outside attack. I thought I was politically well to the right until I’ve sampled some of the recipes for our internal “new doctrine”.

[Kali Komrade]

Okay I will have to read Von's response when I can dedicate the proper amount of time to properly absorb it....

Uh I know its a little late Von but do you have Cliff Notes???

[VonRundstedt]

No, sorry, can't help you there. But there will be a quiz.

Slick, you better begin to think globally, because THAT is the cause of ALL of our current problems, and the reason that the America we used to know will ultimately be dismantled. Our situation has gone SO far beyond the petty squabbles of Left vs Right, the orchestrated TV Game show called American Politics, that we all need to go to the Hall of the Great Oz and get a good long look behind the curtain now, or lose our freedom forever.

[Kali Komrade]

I... hope it's multiple choice at least Von...

I can agree with you on that above point Von looks like we all will be fighting for our own lives soon... I see the same end picture that you see... :shock:

[Kali Komrade]

Okay finally got to read it all... Whew thats a lot to digest... So Von when are you going to inact the Draft.... :wink: Yeah I don't think the american public will ever allow the draft to start again... I have no problem with it hell I signed up years ago still have my card and if called I'd go... There will always be overtones of Vietnam and the draft in the minds of Americans... I think we need to get the US back on track like you said it's a government run by corporations... They tell us what to think, how to live etc. etc. etc.... Democrats, Republicans I don't know they look all the same to me these days I think the Republican side is getting just as extreme as the demo's side.... So what are we left with a extremely fractured country....

[VonRundstedt]

The bill to enact the draft is already being sponsored by Rangel, and has supporters from both parties...

And the subject of discussion of the "Iraq Study Group" is exactly what I just laid out for you above...they are considering these exact options. draft a million troops and go do what was originally planned, or give up and leave.